Oxford MailDebt-hit landlord may have to call time early (From Oxford Mail)

Get involved: send your photos, videos, news & views by texting OXFORD NEWS to 80360 or email us

Debt-hit landlord may have to call time early

Oxford Mail: Simon Moore, landlord of the Chequers Inn in Corn Street, Witney.  Picture: OX56985 Ric Mellis Buy this photo Simon Moore, landlord of the Chequers Inn in Corn Street, Witney. Picture: OX56985 Ric Mellis

A LANDLORD fears he may have to close his pub – blaming the recession and high rents for his woes.

Simon Moore, publican of The Chequers in Corn Street, Witney, said his turnover had collapsed from £278,891 in the financial year 2007/8 to £215,476 in 2011/12.

He said if the trend continued his pub would join others in the town – The Butchers Arms, in Corn Street, and The Plough, in Bridge Street – which closed last year.

The Plough has since reopened and Enterprise Inns, which owns The Butchers Arms, said it plans to reopen the pub.

Mr Moore, 37, said: “Anyone can see that Witney town centre on a Friday and Saturday night is not as busy as it used to be.

“There has been a massive drop in people with disposable income to spend. These are hard times.”

Last year, Witney was heralded by CAMRA as unique because it had managed to retain 24 pubs for the past three decades ago.

This was in stark contrast to the picture across Oxfordshire, where 50 pubs had closed in five years.

Mr Moore, known as Sub, claimed the problems had been exacerbated by Enterprise Inns, which owns the pub, charging him “unsustainable” rent. He claimed he is paying £985 a week in commercial rent, domestic rent and charges for cooling the cellar.

Related links

Enterprise Inns disputed the figures but refused to give more information.

Mr Moore, who lives above the pub with his partner and their two children said he owes £10,000 in taxes and rates and another £16,000 to Enterprise Inns and the debt could hit £50,000 by the end of his lease in August.

He said: “Currently we are struggling each week to pay for the rent and beer. It is an unviable lease in the current climate.

“If Enterprise decides to send in the bailiffs we would lose our home, our jobs and we would have to be made bankrupt.”

He claimed he had repeatedly asked Enterprise for rent reviews during the past two-and-a-half years but was only told he needed to put the application in writing late last year.

He said: “If it had been reduced to a sustainable level when we first asked we could have avoided the financial situation we are in now.”

An Enterprise Inns spokesman said: “We do not discuss the private and confidential matters between the company and our publicans.

“However it is important to understand that the information you have been given is inaccurate and misleading. We continue to support our publicans during these tough economic times.”

Comments (36)

Please log in to enable comment sorting

4:22pm Sat 26 Jan 13

faatmaan says...

using the laissez faire model of economics preferred by the incumbent MP, this is all in the scheme of things, survival of the fittest etc, alas the culture of hospitality in these depressed times has changed from the drunken debauchery from inns in the town centres to the stay at home drinkers who purchase their beer from the supermarkets. The price of hospitality is now well out of peoples reach and the chances of its return look precarious, good luck for the future.
using the laissez faire model of economics preferred by the incumbent MP, this is all in the scheme of things, survival of the fittest etc, alas the culture of hospitality in these depressed times has changed from the drunken debauchery from inns in the town centres to the stay at home drinkers who purchase their beer from the supermarkets. The price of hospitality is now well out of peoples reach and the chances of its return look precarious, good luck for the future. faatmaan
  • Score: 0

6:14pm Sat 26 Jan 13

BartSimpson_ox says...

£3.60 a pint, that's why I drink at home now.
£3.60 a pint, that's why I drink at home now. BartSimpson_ox
  • Score: 0

6:35pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Andrew:Oxford says...

BartSimpson_ox wrote:
£3.60 a pint, that's why I drink at home now.
He'd be far better off selling coffee.
[quote][p][bold]BartSimpson_ox[/bold] wrote: £3.60 a pint, that's why I drink at home now.[/p][/quote]He'd be far better off selling coffee. Andrew:Oxford
  • Score: 0

9:52pm Sat 26 Jan 13

David Fulcher says...

I expect he does sell coffee but the marketing chaps have done well driving people to pay £3.60 in chain coffee shops. Off the £3.60 a pint over a pound goes to hmrc to pay for nhs, teachers etc and same again goes to Enterprise Inns to pay for their massive debt and directors pay increases while share price has dived. Some goes to brewers and transport, staff, heating and business rates. Then theres the rent which was set in better times amd should be discounted to account for paying 1.5 times wholesale price for the tied beer
I expect he does sell coffee but the marketing chaps have done well driving people to pay £3.60 in chain coffee shops. Off the £3.60 a pint over a pound goes to hmrc to pay for nhs, teachers etc and same again goes to Enterprise Inns to pay for their massive debt and directors pay increases while share price has dived. Some goes to brewers and transport, staff, heating and business rates. Then theres the rent which was set in better times amd should be discounted to account for paying 1.5 times wholesale price for the tied beer David Fulcher
  • Score: 0

9:54pm Sat 26 Jan 13

oxonlandlord says...

As a fellow landlord (Punch taverns) in Oxon and in exactly the same position, my heart goes out to you. My local MP has not replied to messages (Conservative). Been going through figures today and the next price increase (4%) plus the escalator (7%) will mean that my real ale will nearly be £4 a pint! If I could buy it free of tie it would be £3.00, and actually mean we could carry on, but it is not going to happen. Village pub, sky, food, play area, raising over £2000 per year for charity and it is all going to be gone! Saturday night and only 3 customers. I just hope that the review is going to happen and that the government does something to help the trade or it will be gone forever!
As a fellow landlord (Punch taverns) in Oxon and in exactly the same position, my heart goes out to you. My local MP has not replied to messages (Conservative). Been going through figures today and the next price increase (4%) plus the escalator (7%) will mean that my real ale will nearly be £4 a pint! If I could buy it free of tie it would be £3.00, and actually mean we could carry on, but it is not going to happen. Village pub, sky, food, play area, raising over £2000 per year for charity and it is all going to be gone! Saturday night and only 3 customers. I just hope that the review is going to happen and that the government does something to help the trade or it will be gone forever! oxonlandlord
  • Score: 0

10:08pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Stan N Jack says...

As an Ex Publican I have to agree with Simon, Oxonlandlord and David Fulcher on this. We were lucky in that we got out of our pub before losing everything but these pub companies have a lot to answer for. Pubs could easily sell pints at reasonable prices if they didn't have to pay extortionate prices for their products from their landlords and were able to buy them free of tie, this together with the over the top rents is destroying the industry. I worry the good old English pub's days are numbered and we'll be left with "Tesco Tavern" to sup at in the not too distant future.
As an Ex Publican I have to agree with Simon, Oxonlandlord and David Fulcher on this. We were lucky in that we got out of our pub before losing everything but these pub companies have a lot to answer for. Pubs could easily sell pints at reasonable prices if they didn't have to pay extortionate prices for their products from their landlords and were able to buy them free of tie, this together with the over the top rents is destroying the industry. I worry the good old English pub's days are numbered and we'll be left with "Tesco Tavern" to sup at in the not too distant future. Stan N Jack
  • Score: 0

11:26pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Andrew:Oxford says...

If I were him, I'd be trying to take advantage of the fact that there is the A&W college a few mins walk away.

A "Scolars Lunch" of a half pint of beer (or carbonate), sandwich and piece of fruit for £4.00.

Just have to make sure that if a 16 or 17 year old is having a beer with his or her meal that it's in the restaurant section and was paid for by an 18yo or older.

The "outrage" of a landlord "cynically" (and quite legally) encouraging 16 year olds to drink in the restaurant (if there is one) element of his pub in the home constituency of the PM in order to make ends meet is far more likely to get the some attention.
If I were him, I'd be trying to take advantage of the fact that there is the A&W college a few mins walk away. A "Scolars Lunch" of a half pint of beer (or carbonate), sandwich and piece of fruit for £4.00. Just have to make sure that if a 16 or 17 year old is having a beer with his or her meal that it's in the restaurant section and was paid for by an 18yo or older. The "outrage" of a landlord "cynically" (and quite legally) encouraging 16 year olds to drink in the restaurant (if there is one) element of his pub in the home constituency of the PM in order to make ends meet is far more likely to get the some attention. Andrew:Oxford
  • Score: 0

11:52pm Sat 26 Jan 13

Andrew Heyes says...

My God. Everywhere pubs are closing and our hard-working licensees are suffering, losing their homes and their jobs. I am so fed up with seeing these stories because they are heart-breaking. Something must be done because these pubcos don't give a flying fig about their pubs or their licensees. They treat them like dirt, so no wonder Enterprise are struggling and the landlord is paying for it with extortionate outgoings. Something has to be done and I hope the regulation sorts out Enterprise and all, good and proper.
In the meantime I wish this landlord all the best for the future. Hang on in there buddy. I hope things get better for you very soon. cheers.
My God. Everywhere pubs are closing and our hard-working licensees are suffering, losing their homes and their jobs. I am so fed up with seeing these stories because they are heart-breaking. Something must be done because these pubcos don't give a flying fig about their pubs or their licensees. They treat them like dirt, so no wonder Enterprise are struggling and the landlord is paying for it with extortionate outgoings. Something has to be done and I hope the regulation sorts out Enterprise and all, good and proper. In the meantime I wish this landlord all the best for the future. Hang on in there buddy. I hope things get better for you very soon. cheers. Andrew Heyes
  • Score: 0

2:31am Sun 27 Jan 13

Grunden Skip says...

The simple fact for drinkers like me is that I am not going to part with £20 for a few pints when I cannot enjoy it. Being forced to go out into the snow/pouring rain for a fag is bad enough, but paying a fortune over the bar for it is just taking the pee. Most drinkers are also smokers and that adds up to a lot of £140 a week lost from us 7 day a week pub goers. The odd non-smoker having an orange juice and packet of crisps with a pickled onion in it does mot make up the shortfall. If the Government really cares about pubs then they will review the ban and leave it up to individual landlords. Then, and only then will we see if the public want smoking pubs or not.
The simple fact for drinkers like me is that I am not going to part with £20 for a few pints when I cannot enjoy it. Being forced to go out into the snow/pouring rain for a fag is bad enough, but paying a fortune over the bar for it is just taking the pee. Most drinkers are also smokers and that adds up to a lot of £140 a week lost from us 7 day a week pub goers. The odd non-smoker having an orange juice and packet of crisps with a pickled onion in it does mot make up the shortfall. If the Government really cares about pubs then they will review the ban and leave it up to individual landlords. Then, and only then will we see if the public want smoking pubs or not. Grunden Skip
  • Score: 0

9:38am Sun 27 Jan 13

Paul Wesson says...

The beer escalator was set by Labour and Osborne should have scrapped it on day one. The smoking ban was created by Labour and Cameron should have scrapped it on day one. 24-hour licensing (supermarkets can do thta, lone publicans can't0 was set by Labour who are partially funded by Sainsbury's and Tesco's directors; Cameron should have scrapped it on day one. The decisions on these matters were made by medical advisers (in the case of smoking and alcohol taxes) who drink the odd glass of wine at dinner and never venture into a pub. The decision on 24-hour opening was hailed as populist, but only the supermarkets have really benefited. Licensing, which was cheap, has been taken from the magistrates and given to the District Council. Rumour has it that WODC is going to charge pubs in Witney an extra £50 per night to stay open after midnight. The pub is the enemy of the ruling classes (I never thought I'd say that) who seem to want us all to drink a glass of wine with our dinner and go to bed early. Read candidate's manifestos at the next general election and you'll see that none of the major parties will change that.
The beer escalator was set by Labour and Osborne should have scrapped it on day one. The smoking ban was created by Labour and Cameron should have scrapped it on day one. 24-hour licensing (supermarkets can do thta, lone publicans can't0 was set by Labour who are partially funded by Sainsbury's and Tesco's directors; Cameron should have scrapped it on day one. The decisions on these matters were made by medical advisers (in the case of smoking and alcohol taxes) who drink the odd glass of wine at dinner and never venture into a pub. The decision on 24-hour opening was hailed as populist, but only the supermarkets have really benefited. Licensing, which was cheap, has been taken from the magistrates and given to the District Council. Rumour has it that WODC is going to charge pubs in Witney an extra £50 per night to stay open after midnight. The pub is the enemy of the ruling classes (I never thought I'd say that) who seem to want us all to drink a glass of wine with our dinner and go to bed early. Read candidate's manifestos at the next general election and you'll see that none of the major parties will change that. Paul Wesson
  • Score: 0

10:33am Sun 27 Jan 13

J..L.. says...

Buying beer at 100% miore than you could buy it if free of tie, paying a rent that is based on a mythical turnover that no one can acheive and that bears no resemblance to actual turnover. (again up to 100% higher than real turnover)
Overcharging for every item that you are forced to buy from them. Insurance dilapidations etc. Charging fines on made up breaches without proof and without any justification of the size of the fine.
Directors awarding themselves massive bonuses while their estate of pubs decay and people and their families who went into "partnership" in good faith get sucked into a sea of debt and go bust.
This is the Pubco model. This is why pubs are closing and why the pint costs more than it should.
Too many people find themselves in Simons position and it has to stop.
Buying beer at 100% miore than you could buy it if free of tie, paying a rent that is based on a mythical turnover that no one can acheive and that bears no resemblance to actual turnover. (again up to 100% higher than real turnover) Overcharging for every item that you are forced to buy from them. Insurance dilapidations etc. Charging fines on made up breaches without proof and without any justification of the size of the fine. Directors awarding themselves massive bonuses while their estate of pubs decay and people and their families who went into "partnership" in good faith get sucked into a sea of debt and go bust. This is the Pubco model. This is why pubs are closing and why the pint costs more than it should. Too many people find themselves in Simons position and it has to stop. J..L..
  • Score: 0

4:10pm Sun 27 Jan 13

SteveWilson says...

There are many reasons for the decline of our pubs but PubCos have to take the majority blame for the decline in their own estates. This situation is typical of what they're doing to licensees across the UK, with absolutely no regard for people's livelihoods or the pub itself. It's disgraceful and, thankfully, government is finally waking up to it...
There are many reasons for the decline of our pubs but PubCos have to take the majority blame for the decline in their own estates. This situation is typical of what they're doing to licensees across the UK, with absolutely no regard for people's livelihoods or the pub itself. It's disgraceful and, thankfully, government is finally waking up to it... SteveWilson
  • Score: 0

4:14pm Sun 27 Jan 13

SteveWilson says...

To those who mention the price of a pint. It is a fact that the average price of a pint in a pub is no more expensive now than it was 20 years ago, relatively so.

You only THINK it is because below-cost supermarket pricing has drastically lowered the cost of off-trade alcohol, which has conditioned you into thinking that supermarket prices are the 'normal' price and anything above is a rip-off.

Pity all of you when pubs have disappeared and supermarkets stop discounting (either through no competition or because they'll be forced to raise prices by health legislation). You'll then end up with alcohol prices back to the real 'normal' but nowhere other than home or restaurants to consume it...
To those who mention the price of a pint. It is a fact that the average price of a pint in a pub is no more expensive now than it was 20 years ago, relatively so. You only THINK it is because below-cost supermarket pricing has drastically lowered the cost of off-trade alcohol, which has conditioned you into thinking that supermarket prices are the 'normal' price and anything above is a rip-off. Pity all of you when pubs have disappeared and supermarkets stop discounting (either through no competition or because they'll be forced to raise prices by health legislation). You'll then end up with alcohol prices back to the real 'normal' but nowhere other than home or restaurants to consume it... SteveWilson
  • Score: 0

4:37pm Sun 27 Jan 13

Russell S says...

Another sad example of the debt laden Pubco Enterprise Inns doing its best to ruin the pub industry.
When is Cameron & this government going to wake up and take appropriate action against the ridiculous 'tie' that allows these 'zombie' companies to pay obscene bonuses through overcharging on rent and beer to huge levels whilst leaving leaseholders & tenants to live off crumbs.
Lets not forget why the customer is paying so much for a pint - it is a scam and a scandal - Cameron have a hard look at the upcoming consultation, understand the matter completely as is your Job and impose free-of-tie option and severe penalties to the Pubco's when they continue to behave like they do - look at the evidence
Another sad example of the debt laden Pubco Enterprise Inns doing its best to ruin the pub industry. When is Cameron & this government going to wake up and take appropriate action against the ridiculous 'tie' that allows these 'zombie' companies to pay obscene bonuses through overcharging on rent and beer to huge levels whilst leaving leaseholders & tenants to live off crumbs. Lets not forget why the customer is paying so much for a pint - it is a scam and a scandal - Cameron have a hard look at the upcoming consultation, understand the matter completely as is your Job and impose free-of-tie option and severe penalties to the Pubco's when they continue to behave like they do - look at the evidence Russell S
  • Score: 0

7:00pm Sun 27 Jan 13

DelEnter says...

One of the joys of the Internet is being able to read local stories - out of locality. I see this pub-horror is happening all over the country. Supposedly 'independent' businesses are being hung out to dry by their property-based landlords. The same names Enterprise Inns, Punch Taverns and Admiral pubs who, incidentally, have just been sold at a loss to the UK taxpayer of £500m - keep 'churning' these businesses. The 'jolly publican' is not so jolly anymore - how can he be? Try to justify the £3.50-£4.00 pint when it's less than a quid in the 24hr supermarket. Sadly, these so-called pub companies have now ruined the tradition of the Great British Pub - shame on them!
One of the joys of the Internet is being able to read local stories - out of locality. I see this pub-horror is happening all over the country. Supposedly 'independent' businesses are being hung out to dry by their property-based landlords. The same names Enterprise Inns, Punch Taverns and Admiral pubs who, incidentally, have just been sold at a loss to the UK taxpayer of £500m - keep 'churning' these businesses. The 'jolly publican' is not so jolly anymore - how can he be? Try to justify the £3.50-£4.00 pint when it's less than a quid in the 24hr supermarket. Sadly, these so-called pub companies have now ruined the tradition of the Great British Pub - shame on them! DelEnter
  • Score: 0

8:01pm Sun 27 Jan 13

Grunden Skip says...

SteveWilson wrote:
There are many reasons for the decline of our pubs but PubCos have to take the majority blame for the decline in their own estates. This situation is typical of what they're doing to licensees across the UK, with absolutely no regard for people's livelihoods or the pub itself. It's disgraceful and, thankfully, government is finally waking up to it...
The Pubcos don't care about the decline, because the land that they own is worth far more as flats and houses than they will ever make from pubs, if they could shut them all down they would. Just look at the amount of flats going up on the Cavalier site, and how many pints you would have to sell to realise that kind of money.
[quote][p][bold]SteveWilson[/bold] wrote: There are many reasons for the decline of our pubs but PubCos have to take the majority blame for the decline in their own estates. This situation is typical of what they're doing to licensees across the UK, with absolutely no regard for people's livelihoods or the pub itself. It's disgraceful and, thankfully, government is finally waking up to it...[/p][/quote]The Pubcos don't care about the decline, because the land that they own is worth far more as flats and houses than they will ever make from pubs, if they could shut them all down they would. Just look at the amount of flats going up on the Cavalier site, and how many pints you would have to sell to realise that kind of money. Grunden Skip
  • Score: 0

8:10pm Sun 27 Jan 13

Grunden Skip says...

Russell S wrote:
Another sad example of the debt laden Pubco Enterprise Inns doing its best to ruin the pub industry.
When is Cameron & this government going to wake up and take appropriate action against the ridiculous 'tie' that allows these 'zombie' companies to pay obscene bonuses through overcharging on rent and beer to huge levels whilst leaving leaseholders & tenants to live off crumbs.
Lets not forget why the customer is paying so much for a pint - it is a scam and a scandal - Cameron have a hard look at the upcoming consultation, understand the matter completely as is your Job and impose free-of-tie option and severe penalties to the Pubco's when they continue to behave like they do - look at the evidence
We have a Tory Government, pro big business, pro big bonuses, and pro obscene profits, but, anti working class pub going types. So why would he change anything. But it would be nice if the publican in Witney where Cameron famously had a pint on TV during election night had the balls to stand up and tell the truth.
[quote][p][bold]Russell S[/bold] wrote: Another sad example of the debt laden Pubco Enterprise Inns doing its best to ruin the pub industry. When is Cameron & this government going to wake up and take appropriate action against the ridiculous 'tie' that allows these 'zombie' companies to pay obscene bonuses through overcharging on rent and beer to huge levels whilst leaving leaseholders & tenants to live off crumbs. Lets not forget why the customer is paying so much for a pint - it is a scam and a scandal - Cameron have a hard look at the upcoming consultation, understand the matter completely as is your Job and impose free-of-tie option and severe penalties to the Pubco's when they continue to behave like they do - look at the evidence[/p][/quote]We have a Tory Government, pro big business, pro big bonuses, and pro obscene profits, but, anti working class pub going types. So why would he change anything. But it would be nice if the publican in Witney where Cameron famously had a pint on TV during election night had the balls to stand up and tell the truth. Grunden Skip
  • Score: 0

6:51am Mon 28 Jan 13

Hippy Gav says...

BartSimpson_ox wrote:
£3.60 a pint, that's why I drink at home now.
And another one bites the dust! As a Publican in a very similar situation my heart goes out to Simon & his family. Not only do we lose every penny we ever had but the PubCo's get away with it. When did they last lose home, money & job? When is someone going to count 'The Churn' that we are being put through? Come on Vince Cable, legislate now!
[quote][p][bold]BartSimpson_ox[/bold] wrote: £3.60 a pint, that's why I drink at home now.[/p][/quote]And another one bites the dust! As a Publican in a very similar situation my heart goes out to Simon & his family. Not only do we lose every penny we ever had but the PubCo's get away with it. When did they last lose home, money & job? When is someone going to count 'The Churn' that we are being put through? Come on Vince Cable, legislate now! Hippy Gav
  • Score: 0

2:26pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Alfie Nokes says...

Now that people can see where this is going (some better than others, Steve) will you all please stop buying into these disastrous false economies?

Likely not, but one can hope.
Now that people can see where this is going (some better than others, Steve) will you all please stop buying into these disastrous false economies? Likely not, but one can hope. Alfie Nokes
  • Score: 0

3:49pm Mon 28 Jan 13

SteveDC says...

Enterprise Inns will undoubtedly send in the bailiffs – why? Because their very business model is based on extracting every last penny out of the encumbered tenant, and when there is nothing left in the pot, forcing them out of the pub to make room for a new lamb for the slaughter.

Enterprise, like the other property owning companies (pubcos), have no interest in beer, pubs or the customers that use them – this is about private equity and keeping the bond holders happy – which in this case is West coast American finance institutions. The pubcos have all but destroyed an entire industry by over charging for beer and through placemen in the RICS; manipulating rents. Rob May, who until recently was the chairman of trade valuation panel for the RICS, still sits on the panel writing guidance for surveyors on how to value licensed property and how to **** rental values. His day time job is a senior rental director for Enterprise Inns – in effect he wrote the guidance from which his employer could directly benefit. You couldn’t really make this stuff up.

We are in the middle of one of the last Great British Scams. The tied pub sector which encompass more than half the pubs in the UK, is a poison chalice in which many thousands of tenants have lost their homes and their livelihoods, all of which has been hidden by a wall of deceit by the pubcos and their agents. The BBPA, mouthpiece of the pubcos and large brewers, has heaped untold damage on an industry, hiding at every opportunity the real reasons for a sector in decline, citing smoking ban, duty and supermarket pricing as the problem when the real problem in anything but. 1p or 2p annual increase on duty hasn’t closed a single pub – tied tenants paying up to double the market value for beer, that’s around £150 a keg when free of tie pubs pay £75, and rental manipulation by complicit surveyors has.

The industry is in urgent need of reform and these truly awful companies need to be exposed for what they are; leaches in the supply process who don’t brew, don’t deliver and don’t care. We’ve had recent 26 inquiries into the immoral actions of pubcos and brewers that copy them, all have uncovered a sickening level of abuse, yet not one single Government has acted to stop it. Now is the time for change, we don’t need nor want the likes of Enterprise Inns in the industry. Let’s hope Vince Cable has the balls to bring this to an end in the soon to be legislated Statutory Code of Practice. All tied tenants should be given an option of whether to be tied of not - this and only this will solve the problem and ensure Government never need to waste taxpayers money again by continually investigating the beer tie and the disgraceful companies that operate it.
Enterprise Inns will undoubtedly send in the bailiffs – why? Because their very business model is based on extracting every last penny out of the encumbered tenant, and when there is nothing left in the pot, forcing them out of the pub to make room for a new lamb for the slaughter. Enterprise, like the other property owning companies (pubcos), have no interest in beer, pubs or the customers that use them – this is about private equity and keeping the bond holders happy – which in this case is West coast American finance institutions. The pubcos have all but destroyed an entire industry by over charging for beer and through placemen in the RICS; manipulating rents. Rob May, who until recently was the chairman of trade valuation panel for the RICS, still sits on the panel writing guidance for surveyors on how to value licensed property and how to **** rental values. His day time job is a senior rental director for Enterprise Inns – in effect he wrote the guidance from which his employer could directly benefit. You couldn’t really make this stuff up. We are in the middle of one of the last Great British Scams. The tied pub sector which encompass more than half the pubs in the UK, is a poison chalice in which many thousands of tenants have lost their homes and their livelihoods, all of which has been hidden by a wall of deceit by the pubcos and their agents. The BBPA, mouthpiece of the pubcos and large brewers, has heaped untold damage on an industry, hiding at every opportunity the real reasons for a sector in decline, citing smoking ban, duty and supermarket pricing as the problem when the real problem in anything but. 1p or 2p annual increase on duty hasn’t closed a single pub – tied tenants paying up to double the market value for beer, that’s around £150 a keg when free of tie pubs pay £75, and rental manipulation by complicit surveyors has. The industry is in urgent need of reform and these truly awful companies need to be exposed for what they are; leaches in the supply process who don’t brew, don’t deliver and don’t care. We’ve had recent 26 inquiries into the immoral actions of pubcos and brewers that copy them, all have uncovered a sickening level of abuse, yet not one single Government has acted to stop it. Now is the time for change, we don’t need nor want the likes of Enterprise Inns in the industry. Let’s hope Vince Cable has the balls to bring this to an end in the soon to be legislated Statutory Code of Practice. All tied tenants should be given an option of whether to be tied of not - this and only this will solve the problem and ensure Government never need to waste taxpayers money again by continually investigating the beer tie and the disgraceful companies that operate it. SteveDC
  • Score: 0

4:53pm Mon 28 Jan 13

J..L.. says...

SteveDC wrote:
Enterprise Inns will undoubtedly send in the bailiffs – why? Because their very business model is based on extracting every last penny out of the encumbered tenant, and when there is nothing left in the pot, forcing them out of the pub to make room for a new lamb for the slaughter.

Enterprise, like the other property owning companies (pubcos), have no interest in beer, pubs or the customers that use them – this is about private equity and keeping the bond holders happy – which in this case is West coast American finance institutions. The pubcos have all but destroyed an entire industry by over charging for beer and through placemen in the RICS; manipulating rents. Rob May, who until recently was the chairman of trade valuation panel for the RICS, still sits on the panel writing guidance for surveyors on how to value licensed property and how to **** rental values. His day time job is a senior rental director for Enterprise Inns – in effect he wrote the guidance from which his employer could directly benefit. You couldn’t really make this stuff up.

We are in the middle of one of the last Great British Scams. The tied pub sector which encompass more than half the pubs in the UK, is a poison chalice in which many thousands of tenants have lost their homes and their livelihoods, all of which has been hidden by a wall of deceit by the pubcos and their agents. The BBPA, mouthpiece of the pubcos and large brewers, has heaped untold damage on an industry, hiding at every opportunity the real reasons for a sector in decline, citing smoking ban, duty and supermarket pricing as the problem when the real problem in anything but. 1p or 2p annual increase on duty hasn’t closed a single pub – tied tenants paying up to double the market value for beer, that’s around £150 a keg when free of tie pubs pay £75, and rental manipulation by complicit surveyors has.

The industry is in urgent need of reform and these truly awful companies need to be exposed for what they are; leaches in the supply process who don’t brew, don’t deliver and don’t care. We’ve had recent 26 inquiries into the immoral actions of pubcos and brewers that copy them, all have uncovered a sickening level of abuse, yet not one single Government has acted to stop it. Now is the time for change, we don’t need nor want the likes of Enterprise Inns in the industry. Let’s hope Vince Cable has the balls to bring this to an end in the soon to be legislated Statutory Code of Practice. All tied tenants should be given an option of whether to be tied of not - this and only this will solve the problem and ensure Government never need to waste taxpayers money again by continually investigating the beer tie and the disgraceful companies that operate it.
SteveDC - Spot on.
[quote][p][bold]SteveDC[/bold] wrote: Enterprise Inns will undoubtedly send in the bailiffs – why? Because their very business model is based on extracting every last penny out of the encumbered tenant, and when there is nothing left in the pot, forcing them out of the pub to make room for a new lamb for the slaughter. Enterprise, like the other property owning companies (pubcos), have no interest in beer, pubs or the customers that use them – this is about private equity and keeping the bond holders happy – which in this case is West coast American finance institutions. The pubcos have all but destroyed an entire industry by over charging for beer and through placemen in the RICS; manipulating rents. Rob May, who until recently was the chairman of trade valuation panel for the RICS, still sits on the panel writing guidance for surveyors on how to value licensed property and how to **** rental values. His day time job is a senior rental director for Enterprise Inns – in effect he wrote the guidance from which his employer could directly benefit. You couldn’t really make this stuff up. We are in the middle of one of the last Great British Scams. The tied pub sector which encompass more than half the pubs in the UK, is a poison chalice in which many thousands of tenants have lost their homes and their livelihoods, all of which has been hidden by a wall of deceit by the pubcos and their agents. The BBPA, mouthpiece of the pubcos and large brewers, has heaped untold damage on an industry, hiding at every opportunity the real reasons for a sector in decline, citing smoking ban, duty and supermarket pricing as the problem when the real problem in anything but. 1p or 2p annual increase on duty hasn’t closed a single pub – tied tenants paying up to double the market value for beer, that’s around £150 a keg when free of tie pubs pay £75, and rental manipulation by complicit surveyors has. The industry is in urgent need of reform and these truly awful companies need to be exposed for what they are; leaches in the supply process who don’t brew, don’t deliver and don’t care. We’ve had recent 26 inquiries into the immoral actions of pubcos and brewers that copy them, all have uncovered a sickening level of abuse, yet not one single Government has acted to stop it. Now is the time for change, we don’t need nor want the likes of Enterprise Inns in the industry. Let’s hope Vince Cable has the balls to bring this to an end in the soon to be legislated Statutory Code of Practice. All tied tenants should be given an option of whether to be tied of not - this and only this will solve the problem and ensure Government never need to waste taxpayers money again by continually investigating the beer tie and the disgraceful companies that operate it.[/p][/quote]SteveDC - Spot on. J..L..
  • Score: 0

5:34pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Grunden Skip says...

SteveDC wrote:
Enterprise Inns will undoubtedly send in the bailiffs – why? Because their very business model is based on extracting every last penny out of the encumbered tenant, and when there is nothing left in the pot, forcing them out of the pub to make room for a new lamb for the slaughter.

Enterprise, like the other property owning companies (pubcos), have no interest in beer, pubs or the customers that use them – this is about private equity and keeping the bond holders happy – which in this case is West coast American finance institutions. The pubcos have all but destroyed an entire industry by over charging for beer and through placemen in the RICS; manipulating rents. Rob May, who until recently was the chairman of trade valuation panel for the RICS, still sits on the panel writing guidance for surveyors on how to value licensed property and how to **** rental values. His day time job is a senior rental director for Enterprise Inns – in effect he wrote the guidance from which his employer could directly benefit. You couldn’t really make this stuff up.

We are in the middle of one of the last Great British Scams. The tied pub sector which encompass more than half the pubs in the UK, is a poison chalice in which many thousands of tenants have lost their homes and their livelihoods, all of which has been hidden by a wall of deceit by the pubcos and their agents. The BBPA, mouthpiece of the pubcos and large brewers, has heaped untold damage on an industry, hiding at every opportunity the real reasons for a sector in decline, citing smoking ban, duty and supermarket pricing as the problem when the real problem in anything but. 1p or 2p annual increase on duty hasn’t closed a single pub – tied tenants paying up to double the market value for beer, that’s around £150 a keg when free of tie pubs pay £75, and rental manipulation by complicit surveyors has.

The industry is in urgent need of reform and these truly awful companies need to be exposed for what they are; leaches in the supply process who don’t brew, don’t deliver and don’t care. We’ve had recent 26 inquiries into the immoral actions of pubcos and brewers that copy them, all have uncovered a sickening level of abuse, yet not one single Government has acted to stop it. Now is the time for change, we don’t need nor want the likes of Enterprise Inns in the industry. Let’s hope Vince Cable has the balls to bring this to an end in the soon to be legislated Statutory Code of Practice. All tied tenants should be given an option of whether to be tied of not - this and only this will solve the problem and ensure Government never need to waste taxpayers money again by continually investigating the beer tie and the disgraceful companies that operate it.
Steve if it as you say it is. Get together and close your pubs for a week, that way not only will you save money by not opening, but you will attract local and national media, and hopefully your locals will see how much they miss not having a pub to go to. You and your ilk moaning on here does nothing, and I bet you still pay your bills to the pubco and still get your delivery. Take direct action nationwide and get the attention that you deserve. If there are as many of you that are going bankrupt as you say, you will be on Sky News and the front page of The Sun on Thursday. But if you are pulling a fast one in the hope of increased profits then you will be found out. The ball is entirely in your court, and at this moment in your hand.
[quote][p][bold]SteveDC[/bold] wrote: Enterprise Inns will undoubtedly send in the bailiffs – why? Because their very business model is based on extracting every last penny out of the encumbered tenant, and when there is nothing left in the pot, forcing them out of the pub to make room for a new lamb for the slaughter. Enterprise, like the other property owning companies (pubcos), have no interest in beer, pubs or the customers that use them – this is about private equity and keeping the bond holders happy – which in this case is West coast American finance institutions. The pubcos have all but destroyed an entire industry by over charging for beer and through placemen in the RICS; manipulating rents. Rob May, who until recently was the chairman of trade valuation panel for the RICS, still sits on the panel writing guidance for surveyors on how to value licensed property and how to **** rental values. His day time job is a senior rental director for Enterprise Inns – in effect he wrote the guidance from which his employer could directly benefit. You couldn’t really make this stuff up. We are in the middle of one of the last Great British Scams. The tied pub sector which encompass more than half the pubs in the UK, is a poison chalice in which many thousands of tenants have lost their homes and their livelihoods, all of which has been hidden by a wall of deceit by the pubcos and their agents. The BBPA, mouthpiece of the pubcos and large brewers, has heaped untold damage on an industry, hiding at every opportunity the real reasons for a sector in decline, citing smoking ban, duty and supermarket pricing as the problem when the real problem in anything but. 1p or 2p annual increase on duty hasn’t closed a single pub – tied tenants paying up to double the market value for beer, that’s around £150 a keg when free of tie pubs pay £75, and rental manipulation by complicit surveyors has. The industry is in urgent need of reform and these truly awful companies need to be exposed for what they are; leaches in the supply process who don’t brew, don’t deliver and don’t care. We’ve had recent 26 inquiries into the immoral actions of pubcos and brewers that copy them, all have uncovered a sickening level of abuse, yet not one single Government has acted to stop it. Now is the time for change, we don’t need nor want the likes of Enterprise Inns in the industry. Let’s hope Vince Cable has the balls to bring this to an end in the soon to be legislated Statutory Code of Practice. All tied tenants should be given an option of whether to be tied of not - this and only this will solve the problem and ensure Government never need to waste taxpayers money again by continually investigating the beer tie and the disgraceful companies that operate it.[/p][/quote]Steve if it as you say it is. Get together and close your pubs for a week, that way not only will you save money by not opening, but you will attract local and national media, and hopefully your locals will see how much they miss not having a pub to go to. You and your ilk moaning on here does nothing, and I bet you still pay your bills to the pubco and still get your delivery. Take direct action nationwide and get the attention that you deserve. If there are as many of you that are going bankrupt as you say, you will be on Sky News and the front page of The Sun on Thursday. But if you are pulling a fast one in the hope of increased profits then you will be found out. The ball is entirely in your court, and at this moment in your hand. Grunden Skip
  • Score: 0

6:42pm Mon 28 Jan 13

Abartonresident says...

Grunden Skips, I don't know what kind of non-smokers you know but it certainly isn't the kind I know. On your basis, when I gave up smoking I also gave up drinking? Weird theory.
Grunden Skips, I don't know what kind of non-smokers you know but it certainly isn't the kind I know. On your basis, when I gave up smoking I also gave up drinking? Weird theory. Abartonresident
  • Score: 0

1:37am Tue 29 Jan 13

J Mark Dodds says...

Grunden Skip

Regarding your ingenious suggestion of a rent strike, please can you tell your interested readers how exactly all those pubco lessees - 20,000 of them - get together and close their pubs for a week at the same time? How would they co-ordinate such an action.

Do you think it has not been proposed before? And how would closing for a week benefit them when losing a week's cash flow will shut many of their pubs permanently?

Can you suggest how all those tenants could manage that? Please?

It would be useful if you could use your insight to point me and my moaning ilk, like SteveDC who, it's manifestly clear from his post is well informed about the pub sector, in the right direction.

Thank you.
Grunden Skip Regarding your ingenious suggestion of a rent strike, please can you tell your interested readers how exactly all those pubco lessees - 20,000 of them - get together and close their pubs for a week at the same time? How would they co-ordinate such an action. Do you think it has not been proposed before? And how would closing for a week benefit them when losing a week's cash flow will shut many of their pubs permanently? Can you suggest how all those tenants could manage that? Please? It would be useful if you could use your insight to point me and my moaning ilk, like SteveDC who, it's manifestly clear from his post is well informed about the pub sector, in the right direction. Thank you. J Mark Dodds
  • Score: 0

1:46am Tue 29 Jan 13

J Mark Dodds says...

Enterprise obviously will never comment about one of their customers who they are comprehensively fleecing through charging sky high rent and scandalously over-the-top beer prices - which is their simple business model - for reasons of commercial confidentiality.

Why would Enterprise want to discuss in public what their customers so clearly want them to? Customers who've taken their story to the press because Enterprise has evidently failed (they are in the press about it) to satisfy many repeated requests for a fair commercial terms that allow them to make as much money as Enterprise takes from them.

The pubco's all behave the same way. They are all asset stripping the nation's legacy, heritage and tradition for the sake of satiating the demands of short term private equity greed.

What the current generation of pubco management have done to Britain's pubs will go down in history as nothing less than a cultural crime of historical proportions unprecedented since the reformation of the church but for far less supportable reasons.
Enterprise obviously will never comment about one of their customers who they are comprehensively fleecing through charging sky high rent and scandalously over-the-top beer prices - which is their simple business model - for reasons of commercial confidentiality. Why would Enterprise want to discuss in public what their customers so clearly want them to? Customers who've taken their story to the press because Enterprise has evidently failed (they are in the press about it) to satisfy many repeated requests for a fair commercial terms that allow them to make as much money as Enterprise takes from them. The pubco's all behave the same way. They are all asset stripping the nation's legacy, heritage and tradition for the sake of satiating the demands of short term private equity greed. What the current generation of pubco management have done to Britain's pubs will go down in history as nothing less than a cultural crime of historical proportions unprecedented since the reformation of the church but for far less supportable reasons. J Mark Dodds
  • Score: 0

11:10am Tue 29 Jan 13

keithpp says...

The problem lies with the PubCos, Zombie companies that have not a hope in hell of paying off their debts. They squeeze their pub landlords to pay the interest, when that fails, sell of the pub for redevelopment.

Currently interest rates are at a record low. When they go up, the pubcos will go bust.

Banks are keeping the pubcos afloat because they they can record the debt as an asset, when they go under they will be obliged to record as a liability.

We are losing pubs at the rate of 18 a week.

It has nothing to do with recession, nothing to do with a ban on smoking, nothing to do with tax. It is the greedy pubcos that are the problem.

Smoking is a disgusting habit. It should have been banned from grounds not just indoors. May folks now go to pubs because they no longer have to breathe in smoke.
The problem lies with the PubCos, Zombie companies that have not a hope in hell of paying off their debts. They squeeze their pub landlords to pay the interest, when that fails, sell of the pub for redevelopment. Currently interest rates are at a record low. When they go up, the pubcos will go bust. Banks are keeping the pubcos afloat because they they can record the debt as an asset, when they go under they will be obliged to record as a liability. We are losing pubs at the rate of 18 a week. It has nothing to do with recession, nothing to do with a ban on smoking, nothing to do with tax. It is the greedy pubcos that are the problem. Smoking is a disgusting habit. It should have been banned from grounds not just indoors. May folks now go to pubs because they no longer have to breathe in smoke. keithpp
  • Score: 0

11:37am Tue 29 Jan 13

J Mark Dodds says...

Spot on keithpp

We need to assess the social damage created by a landscape of broken pubs.

Many, many good people - thousands - have lost their shirt through sinking everything they've ever saved and owned into setting up business in a pubco lease following being attracted by the pubco dream, low cost entry, a great opportunity to make something of their lives after whatever they were doing before... A pubco lease was a dream and the beginning of a new, successful career where they could consolidate their experience and skills into a business where they were in control, where their efforts, hard work and absolute commitment would be rewarded, grow and develop into a profitable venture that would set them up for the rest of their natural...

These are the invisible, voiceless, majority. There's loads of them out there, downtrodden, beaten, rebuilding their lives following financial ruin; the last thing they want to do is campaign for a fair deal anymore. What they need to do is forget and get on with forgetting what they went through. They need to recover from the SHAME of failure.

It would be good to find these people. Some of them will probably have a few boxes full of evidence they never had a chance to put to use.

If you are an ex lessee of a tied pub and would like to tell your story please get in touch peoplespubpartnershi
p at gmail dot com
Spot on keithpp We need to assess the social damage created by a landscape of broken pubs. Many, many good people - thousands - have lost their shirt through sinking everything they've ever saved and owned into setting up business in a pubco lease following being attracted by the pubco dream, low cost entry, a great opportunity to make something of their lives after whatever they were doing before... A pubco lease was a dream and the beginning of a new, successful career where they could consolidate their experience and skills into a business where they were in control, where their efforts, hard work and absolute commitment would be rewarded, grow and develop into a profitable venture that would set them up for the rest of their natural... These are the invisible, voiceless, majority. There's loads of them out there, downtrodden, beaten, rebuilding their lives following financial ruin; the last thing they want to do is campaign for a fair deal anymore. What they need to do is forget and get on with forgetting what they went through. They need to recover from the SHAME of failure. It would be good to find these people. Some of them will probably have a few boxes full of evidence they never had a chance to put to use. If you are an ex lessee of a tied pub and would like to tell your story please get in touch peoplespubpartnershi p at gmail dot com J Mark Dodds
  • Score: 0

1:26pm Tue 29 Jan 13

Grunden Skip says...

J Mark Dodds wrote:
Enterprise obviously will never comment about one of their customers who they are comprehensively fleecing through charging sky high rent and scandalously over-the-top beer prices - which is their simple business model - for reasons of commercial confidentiality.

Why would Enterprise want to discuss in public what their customers so clearly want them to? Customers who've taken their story to the press because Enterprise has evidently failed (they are in the press about it) to satisfy many repeated requests for a fair commercial terms that allow them to make as much money as Enterprise takes from them.

The pubco's all behave the same way. They are all asset stripping the nation's legacy, heritage and tradition for the sake of satiating the demands of short term private equity greed.

What the current generation of pubco management have done to Britain's pubs will go down in history as nothing less than a cultural crime of historical proportions unprecedented since the reformation of the church but for far less supportable reasons.
Don't blame the PUBCOS, it was not them that closed down Morrell's, or turned The Brewery, The Horse & Jockey, Plasterers, Coach & Horses, The Globe etc into flats, it was also not them that closed Morland's, with the same result. The PUBCOS are a business, like you landlords above, and as such are out to make a profit. If you are struggling, open for breakfast and make money selling cheap food for a good profit (IE wetherspoons) or open later (now we have 24/7 opening) get together and start a darts/pool league or have a quiz night to encourage trade. In these days opening the door is not the way to a successful business, you have to work at it. And to Abartonresident, I will explain. When the smoking ban hit its first winter myself and 5 other 7 nights a week pub friends (there were others as well) stopped spending our £140 minimum each and started buying our booze from Tesco and going to each others houses where we could watch all the footy have the same crack and still smoke without missing a goal or going to go outside in the freezing cold. That is £43,000 + lost just from us 6 without others not in our little group. This was not replaced by all of those non-smokers that were going to fill our pubs, as has shown by the pub closures, irrespective of what the anti-smokers say. And sadly after 26 years as the landlord of our local, he had to sell the rest of his lease for a pittance and retire, the new lot lasted 11 months, and the pub is now being turned into a block of flats. That was not a PUBCO pub. It is easy to blame others for your business going to the pot, but you need to be pro-active to make a success of any business. Good luck to you, but stop moaning and start working. I do know what I am talking about, as I lost my (once successful) business by spending too much time in the pub, and not enough time working. That is why I am sat here commenting now, instead of doing what I should be.
[quote][p][bold]J Mark Dodds[/bold] wrote: Enterprise obviously will never comment about one of their customers who they are comprehensively fleecing through charging sky high rent and scandalously over-the-top beer prices - which is their simple business model - for reasons of commercial confidentiality. Why would Enterprise want to discuss in public what their customers so clearly want them to? Customers who've taken their story to the press because Enterprise has evidently failed (they are in the press about it) to satisfy many repeated requests for a fair commercial terms that allow them to make as much money as Enterprise takes from them. The pubco's all behave the same way. They are all asset stripping the nation's legacy, heritage and tradition for the sake of satiating the demands of short term private equity greed. What the current generation of pubco management have done to Britain's pubs will go down in history as nothing less than a cultural crime of historical proportions unprecedented since the reformation of the church but for far less supportable reasons.[/p][/quote]Don't blame the PUBCOS, it was not them that closed down Morrell's, or turned The Brewery, The Horse & Jockey, Plasterers, Coach & Horses, The Globe etc into flats, it was also not them that closed Morland's, with the same result. The PUBCOS are a business, like you landlords above, and as such are out to make a profit. If you are struggling, open for breakfast and make money selling cheap food for a good profit (IE wetherspoons) or open later (now we have 24/7 opening) get together and start a darts/pool league or have a quiz night to encourage trade. In these days opening the door is not the way to a successful business, you have to work at it. And to Abartonresident, I will explain. When the smoking ban hit its first winter myself and 5 other 7 nights a week pub friends (there were others as well) stopped spending our £140 minimum each and started buying our booze from Tesco and going to each others houses where we could watch all the footy have the same crack and still smoke without missing a goal or going to go outside in the freezing cold. That is £43,000 + lost just from us 6 without others not in our little group. This was not replaced by all of those non-smokers that were going to fill our pubs, as has shown by the pub closures, irrespective of what the anti-smokers say. And sadly after 26 years as the landlord of our local, he had to sell the rest of his lease for a pittance and retire, the new lot lasted 11 months, and the pub is now being turned into a block of flats. That was not a PUBCO pub. It is easy to blame others for your business going to the pot, but you need to be pro-active to make a success of any business. Good luck to you, but stop moaning and start working. I do know what I am talking about, as I lost my (once successful) business by spending too much time in the pub, and not enough time working. That is why I am sat here commenting now, instead of doing what I should be. Grunden Skip
  • Score: 0

1:47pm Tue 29 Jan 13

J Mark Dodds says...

Grunden Skip

What sort of pub was the one you describe that is now a block of flats then?

There are many issues at play in affecting the pub sector and pressing on the success of many thousands of businesses and when you and your friends changed your habits that clearly had an impact on the pub you abandoned in favour of Tesco take outs in your living rooms. But the facts remain that pubco's own most of the pub stock in Britain and charge over market rent for the property and twice for the beer than it is available on the open market. That makes for businesses that do not make enough profit for the lessees but turn a lot of profit for the pubco.

Comparing Wetherspoons and tied pubs is chalk and cheese. JDW is a well financed managed chain that is supported by a strong head office back up with the economy of scale to open longer hours and increase turnover, rather than profit, to improve overall business performance. The margins on selling food cheap do not attract profits they encourage increased turnover which is a fine thing to do if you are trading an already profitable business. JDW staff don't have to work 100 hours a week for zero pay to keep the business open the way pubco tenants have to. Pubco leased pubs are small businesses run by individuals with no back up from anywhere else.

What you are unable to see from a customers' point of view is that many hundreds of very busy pubs that are apparently highly successful from the consumer's side of the bar are, in fact, failing financially with the freeholders taking 110% + of the profits and the businesses are only trading because the tenants are tied into a spiral of servitude working ever longer hours for no return. Their only routes ahead are to work as slaves or to throw the towel in and lose everything. Which very often means their home, life savings and, if they have external assets such as a house or other business interests, see them seized by the pubco when they hand the keys back. There is no way out. The only way is down.

The fact is that the majority of tenants are in trouble because they run small businesses that are designed to fail because of the way the pubcos set up the financial mechanisms to extract more profit from the property than the tenant can ever get out. This is the way it is. And that is why government is looking at finding ways to regulate the behaviour of the pubco's now, they have seen the proof over a decade of Select Committee evidence and are convinced.

The way the tied lease model has been abused to extract maximum profit with least possible investment by the pubcos has created an inevitable downward spiral for all tied pubs that has everyone in the tied pub sector caught up the same way; multiple operators as well as sole traders.

The only way tenants survive in these circumstances is by substantially over-trading their pubs in an inevitable merry go round that means the pubco's rapacious profits grab will catch up with the busiest tied tenants later rather than sooner.
Grunden Skip What sort of pub was the one you describe that is now a block of flats then? There are many issues at play in affecting the pub sector and pressing on the success of many thousands of businesses and when you and your friends changed your habits that clearly had an impact on the pub you abandoned in favour of Tesco take outs in your living rooms. But the facts remain that pubco's own most of the pub stock in Britain and charge over market rent for the property and twice for the beer than it is available on the open market. That makes for businesses that do not make enough profit for the lessees but turn a lot of profit for the pubco. Comparing Wetherspoons and tied pubs is chalk and cheese. JDW is a well financed managed chain that is supported by a strong head office back up with the economy of scale to open longer hours and increase turnover, rather than profit, to improve overall business performance. The margins on selling food cheap do not attract profits they encourage increased turnover which is a fine thing to do if you are trading an already profitable business. JDW staff don't have to work 100 hours a week for zero pay to keep the business open the way pubco tenants have to. Pubco leased pubs are small businesses run by individuals with no back up from anywhere else. What you are unable to see from a customers' point of view is that many hundreds of very busy pubs that are apparently highly successful from the consumer's side of the bar are, in fact, failing financially with the freeholders taking 110% + of the profits and the businesses are only trading because the tenants are tied into a spiral of servitude working ever longer hours for no return. Their only routes ahead are to work as slaves or to throw the towel in and lose everything. Which very often means their home, life savings and, if they have external assets such as a house or other business interests, see them seized by the pubco when they hand the keys back. There is no way out. The only way is down. The fact is that the majority of tenants are in trouble because they run small businesses that are designed to fail because of the way the pubcos set up the financial mechanisms to extract more profit from the property than the tenant can ever get out. This is the way it is. And that is why government is looking at finding ways to regulate the behaviour of the pubco's now, they have seen the proof over a decade of Select Committee evidence and are convinced. The way the tied lease model has been abused to extract maximum profit with least possible investment by the pubcos has created an inevitable downward spiral for all tied pubs that has everyone in the tied pub sector caught up the same way; multiple operators as well as sole traders. The only way tenants survive in these circumstances is by substantially over-trading their pubs in an inevitable merry go round that means the pubco's rapacious profits grab will catch up with the busiest tied tenants later rather than sooner. J Mark Dodds
  • Score: 0

7:07pm Tue 29 Jan 13

shipscat says...

Anybody looking at investing as a landlord should have a good look in the mirror and think about it they will be throwing good money after bad.
Anybody looking at investing as a landlord should have a good look in the mirror and think about it they will be throwing good money after bad. shipscat
  • Score: 0

8:19am Wed 30 Jan 13

DelEnter says...

@Grundon Skip. You portray a reasonably good understanding of the pubs business, however your glib remark "open for breakfast selling cheap food for a good profit" puts you right back with the don't-knows. Equally, "open later" is even less of a solution. You know what happens when a local pub opens later? Yep, the punters come out later, having consumed a little more cheap booze from the supermarket. And my working day has just extended from 12 to 14 hours for not a penny more. It's the Pubcos wot dun it!
@Grundon Skip. You portray a reasonably good understanding of the pubs business, however your glib remark "open for breakfast selling cheap food for a good profit" puts you right back with the don't-knows. Equally, "open later" is even less of a solution. You know what happens when a local pub opens later? Yep, the punters come out later, having consumed a little more cheap booze from the supermarket. And my working day has just extended from 12 to 14 hours for not a penny more. It's the Pubcos wot dun it! DelEnter
  • Score: 0

10:24am Wed 30 Jan 13

SteveDC says...

Grunden Skip, thanks for coming back to me.

I’m not a tenant or a publican; I haven’t been one for a long time. Having worked in the sector for many years I recognised the damage being done by the pubcos and decided to get out before I got sucked down the pan. I was one of the lucky ones but there are many who aren’t.

Your reasoning here is one that many people will recognise as considered and reasonable. It is however very easily exploited by those of a more ruthless bent such as executives of pubcos and their financers. The myths peddled at the sharp end by people who really ought to know better are truly shocking. Prospective tenants hoodwinked into taking failed businesses by people intent on perpetuating the scam that there’s “gold in them hills” when there invariably isn’t. Misleading information, insufficient data and miss selling, all to make sure the new tenant doesn’t have sufficient information in which to make an informed business choice. “It’s all the fault of those hard working publicans for allowing themselves to be ripped off” is the shout of those uninformed. I can see your point “ Caveat Emptor” and all that, but in the tied pub sector it doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. Inexperienced people being drawn into the pub sector under the claim of a 'low cost entry system' and many have suffered gravely at the hands of the pubcos and brewers. In nearly 30 years in business I've never seen a 'low cost entry system' to any sector that wasn't, in some way or other, fraudulent or verging on it. The pubcos and brewers that copy them have made a terrible mess out of the industry. They’ve seen nothing wrong in engaging in anti-competitive behaviour that has damaged pubs and driven prices up and quality down for consumers. Like you - no wonder they’ve moved on in their droves.
Grunden Skip, thanks for coming back to me. I’m not a tenant or a publican; I haven’t been one for a long time. Having worked in the sector for many years I recognised the damage being done by the pubcos and decided to get out before I got sucked down the pan. I was one of the lucky ones but there are many who aren’t. Your reasoning here is one that many people will recognise as considered and reasonable. It is however very easily exploited by those of a more ruthless bent such as executives of pubcos and their financers. The myths peddled at the sharp end by people who really ought to know better are truly shocking. Prospective tenants hoodwinked into taking failed businesses by people intent on perpetuating the scam that there’s “gold in them hills” when there invariably isn’t. Misleading information, insufficient data and miss selling, all to make sure the new tenant doesn’t have sufficient information in which to make an informed business choice. “It’s all the fault of those hard working publicans for allowing themselves to be ripped off” is the shout of those uninformed. I can see your point “ Caveat Emptor” and all that, but in the tied pub sector it doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. Inexperienced people being drawn into the pub sector under the claim of a 'low cost entry system' and many have suffered gravely at the hands of the pubcos and brewers. In nearly 30 years in business I've never seen a 'low cost entry system' to any sector that wasn't, in some way or other, fraudulent or verging on it. The pubcos and brewers that copy them have made a terrible mess out of the industry. They’ve seen nothing wrong in engaging in anti-competitive behaviour that has damaged pubs and driven prices up and quality down for consumers. Like you - no wonder they’ve moved on in their droves. SteveDC
  • Score: 0

1:13pm Wed 30 Jan 13

listentoyourself says...

Very sad for anyone that stands to lose their job, house, and be in debt.

But my belief is that it really is far more than the cost of a pint. Years ago people went to their local for many reasons, chat, watch tv/sport, play cards, drink alcohol (that was not as accessible as now), etc etc.

However nowadays things have changed and these are all things that can be done in the comfort of your own home for far less money, without the hassle of getting done-up, and without getting stung on taxi prices (was quoted £35 to get 11 miles at 10.00pm last Saturday). For example:

Chat: Everyone has a phone/computer/I-pad these days, far easier to text than talk (sad I agree).

Watch tv/sport: With Sky and the rest you can now watch anything you want without the ‘fruity or jukebox’ going off in the background for £50 odd a month (£1.67 a day).

Play cards: Over the internet you can play with far more people for cheap stakes, and stand to win much more money.

And of course drink alcohol: £3.70 for a Guinness in Pubs, £1 from Tes/fridges. Wine averages around £15 a bottle in Pubs, £5 for an on-sale good bottle in Tes/fridges.

I think it is more that the world has changed, more than the breweries need to change. And possibly the only pubs that will be around in the future will be the ones for teenagers (they will always have their needs, lol), and Restaurant type Pubs for the people who like to dine out.

Good luck to all landlords.
Very sad for anyone that stands to lose their job, house, and be in debt. But my belief is that it really is far more than the cost of a pint. Years ago people went to their local for many reasons, chat, watch tv/sport, play cards, drink alcohol (that was not as accessible as now), etc etc. However nowadays things have changed and these are all things that can be done in the comfort of your own home for far less money, without the hassle of getting done-up, and without getting stung on taxi prices (was quoted £35 to get 11 miles at 10.00pm last Saturday). For example: Chat: Everyone has a phone/computer/I-pad these days, far easier to text than talk (sad I agree). Watch tv/sport: With Sky and the rest you can now watch anything you want without the ‘fruity or jukebox’ going off in the background for £50 odd a month (£1.67 a day). Play cards: Over the internet you can play with far more people for cheap stakes, and stand to win much more money. And of course drink alcohol: £3.70 for a Guinness in Pubs, £1 from Tes/fridges. Wine averages around £15 a bottle in Pubs, £5 for an on-sale good bottle in Tes/fridges. I think it is more that the world has changed, more than the breweries need to change. And possibly the only pubs that will be around in the future will be the ones for teenagers (they will always have their needs, lol), and Restaurant type Pubs for the people who like to dine out. Good luck to all landlords. listentoyourself
  • Score: 0

6:49pm Wed 30 Jan 13

Grunden Skip says...

SteveDC wrote:
Grunden Skip, thanks for coming back to me.

I’m not a tenant or a publican; I haven’t been one for a long time. Having worked in the sector for many years I recognised the damage being done by the pubcos and decided to get out before I got sucked down the pan. I was one of the lucky ones but there are many who aren’t.

Your reasoning here is one that many people will recognise as considered and reasonable. It is however very easily exploited by those of a more ruthless bent such as executives of pubcos and their financers. The myths peddled at the sharp end by people who really ought to know better are truly shocking. Prospective tenants hoodwinked into taking failed businesses by people intent on perpetuating the scam that there’s “gold in them hills” when there invariably isn’t. Misleading information, insufficient data and miss selling, all to make sure the new tenant doesn’t have sufficient information in which to make an informed business choice. “It’s all the fault of those hard working publicans for allowing themselves to be ripped off” is the shout of those uninformed. I can see your point “ Caveat Emptor” and all that, but in the tied pub sector it doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. Inexperienced people being drawn into the pub sector under the claim of a 'low cost entry system' and many have suffered gravely at the hands of the pubcos and brewers. In nearly 30 years in business I've never seen a 'low cost entry system' to any sector that wasn't, in some way or other, fraudulent or verging on it. The pubcos and brewers that copy them have made a terrible mess out of the industry. They’ve seen nothing wrong in engaging in anti-competitive behaviour that has damaged pubs and driven prices up and quality down for consumers. Like you - no wonder they’ve moved on in their droves.
A very informed reply Steve. And anybody new looking to buy a lease, should think, why are all the busy pubs managed, and the dead ones up for lease. But it is not impossible, it is hard work, and you need a captive audience. As I said earlier, get a good dart throw, you can have 2 mens and 2 womens teams plus super league, at least. Make room for a pool table, not one cramped in a corner, there are leagues 3 times a week, that way you can have spenders in your pub on the dead Mon-Thurs nights. Encourage people that want to play, as they will become loyal, and come back. The above pub I mentioned that is now turning into a block of flats lost all of the above and many more locals when he sold the lease, the new people had nothing to work with, and as I say only lasted less than a year. Create a band of locals giving THEM what they want in a pub (let them think they have taken over) and they will come back. I don't know how much the Pubcos are charging as opposed to a brewery tied house, but it can't be much more, can it?
[quote][p][bold]SteveDC[/bold] wrote: Grunden Skip, thanks for coming back to me. I’m not a tenant or a publican; I haven’t been one for a long time. Having worked in the sector for many years I recognised the damage being done by the pubcos and decided to get out before I got sucked down the pan. I was one of the lucky ones but there are many who aren’t. Your reasoning here is one that many people will recognise as considered and reasonable. It is however very easily exploited by those of a more ruthless bent such as executives of pubcos and their financers. The myths peddled at the sharp end by people who really ought to know better are truly shocking. Prospective tenants hoodwinked into taking failed businesses by people intent on perpetuating the scam that there’s “gold in them hills” when there invariably isn’t. Misleading information, insufficient data and miss selling, all to make sure the new tenant doesn’t have sufficient information in which to make an informed business choice. “It’s all the fault of those hard working publicans for allowing themselves to be ripped off” is the shout of those uninformed. I can see your point “ Caveat Emptor” and all that, but in the tied pub sector it doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface. Inexperienced people being drawn into the pub sector under the claim of a 'low cost entry system' and many have suffered gravely at the hands of the pubcos and brewers. In nearly 30 years in business I've never seen a 'low cost entry system' to any sector that wasn't, in some way or other, fraudulent or verging on it. The pubcos and brewers that copy them have made a terrible mess out of the industry. They’ve seen nothing wrong in engaging in anti-competitive behaviour that has damaged pubs and driven prices up and quality down for consumers. Like you - no wonder they’ve moved on in their droves.[/p][/quote]A very informed reply Steve. And anybody new looking to buy a lease, should think, why are all the busy pubs managed, and the dead ones up for lease. But it is not impossible, it is hard work, and you need a captive audience. As I said earlier, get a good dart throw, you can have 2 mens and 2 womens teams plus super league, at least. Make room for a pool table, not one cramped in a corner, there are leagues 3 times a week, that way you can have spenders in your pub on the dead Mon-Thurs nights. Encourage people that want to play, as they will become loyal, and come back. The above pub I mentioned that is now turning into a block of flats lost all of the above and many more locals when he sold the lease, the new people had nothing to work with, and as I say only lasted less than a year. Create a band of locals giving THEM what they want in a pub (let them think they have taken over) and they will come back. I don't know how much the Pubcos are charging as opposed to a brewery tied house, but it can't be much more, can it? Grunden Skip
  • Score: 0

12:38pm Thu 31 Jan 13

matty99 says...

I am just a simple soul on minimum wage, I don't understand the economics
Of why pubs are clossing I just miss my local that have long since closed and have to travel by bus now to get my few pints of beer I enjoy to drink at a wetherspoons pub that is a bit like a departure lounge at an airport.
I am just a simple soul on minimum wage, I don't understand the economics Of why pubs are clossing I just miss my local that have long since closed and have to travel by bus now to get my few pints of beer I enjoy to drink at a wetherspoons pub that is a bit like a departure lounge at an airport. matty99
  • Score: 0

2:54pm Thu 31 Jan 13

Grunden Skip says...

matty99 wrote:
I am just a simple soul on minimum wage, I don't understand the economics
Of why pubs are clossing I just miss my local that have long since closed and have to travel by bus now to get my few pints of beer I enjoy to drink at a wetherspoons pub that is a bit like a departure lounge at an airport.
Sadly since the Smoking ban, they are all like that. but at least the local Wetherspoons don't expect to keep your change, unlike the airport.
[quote][p][bold]matty99[/bold] wrote: I am just a simple soul on minimum wage, I don't understand the economics Of why pubs are clossing I just miss my local that have long since closed and have to travel by bus now to get my few pints of beer I enjoy to drink at a wetherspoons pub that is a bit like a departure lounge at an airport.[/p][/quote]Sadly since the Smoking ban, they are all like that. but at least the local Wetherspoons don't expect to keep your change, unlike the airport. Grunden Skip
  • Score: 0

Comments are closed on this article.

click2find

About cookies

We want you to enjoy your visit to our website. That's why we use cookies to enhance your experience. By staying on our website you agree to our use of cookies. Find out more about the cookies we use.

I agree