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Church objects to lap-dancing club

7:00pm Thursday 6th January 2011 in Oxford By Rhianne Pope

The Rev Pete Wilkinson says his church will fight a licence application by Thirst Lodge The Rev Pete Wilkinson says his church will fight a licence application by Thirst Lodge

AN OXFORD church has vowed to continue its fight against a lap-dancing club.

St Ebbe’s Church, in the city centre, said this week it had lodged an official objection to a new licence application from neighbouring Thirst Lodge.

Thirst Lodge, in Pennyfarthing Place, has had to apply to Oxford City Council for a licence to operate as a sexual entertainment venue following a change in the law.

The city council has adopted new powers, which have been offered to licensing authorities, allowing them to treat lap-dancing clubs in a similar fashion to sex shops and adult cinemas.

Lap-dancing clubs had previously been able to operate using a general premises entertainment licence.

But the new powers allow councils that choose to adopt them to bar lap-dancing clubs from sites in residential areas, or near schools, play areas, shopping centres, tourist attractions and churches or other places of worship.

The Rev Vaughan Roberts, the rector of St Ebbe’s, said: “We are reluctant to object to the application by Thirst Lodge for a sexual entertainment venue licence, not least because it could make us look like spoilsports. However, we have decided that we must object.”

Earlier this year, the church was left with a £12,000 legal bill after losing an appeal against the decision to allow Thirst Lodge to open.

Deputy District Judge Gary Lucie threw out the church’s appeal after finding there was no public nuisance, the church’s activities rarely overlapped with Thirst Lodge’s opening hours and crime in the area had fallen since the club’s change of use.

The Rev Roberts said: “We believe that lap-dancing clubs demean women, undermine marriage and depersonalise God’s good gift of sex, so we would not be in favour of such a club anywhere.

“We feel that the location of the Lodge is particularly inappropriate as it is right next to the Westgate Centre and car park, which is a gateway into our historic city for many visitors.

“It is near a number of residential properties, as well as being just a few yards from St Ebbe’s Church, which holds not only church services but also a thriving toddler group and clubs for children most days of the week.”

The Rev Pete Wilkinson, associate minister at St Ebbe’s agreed, saying: “I don’t think the club is good for the city and I can scarcely think of a more inappropriate position for it to be.”

The deadline for objections to the new licence is today. The fate of Thirst Lodge will then be decided by the city council’s licensing committee. A date for this has not yet been set.

Last summer, city council leader Bob Price said he did not want lap-dancing clubs in Oxford. He called lap-dancing “dubious and exploitative”, adding: “It may not be unlawful, but it’s not something we want here.”

City councillor Colin Cook said last night: “Before this new law, we did not have power over the licensing of sexual entertainment venues, but now we have those extra powers.”

He declined to comment further on the application, but said the proximity to a church “may be a factor” in the decision.

Thirst Lodge declined to comment.

Comments(24)

CowleyBoy says...
7:09pm Thu 6 Jan 11

"We believe that lap-dancing clubs demean women"

And religion never does that, does it Rev.

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Peterr Mcvey says...
7:42pm Thu 6 Jan 11

The Rev Roberts said: “We believe that lap-dancing clubs demean women, undermine marriage and depersonalise God’s good gift of sex, so we would not be in favour of such a club anywhere......

So Rev, I expect you to be at the Manzil mosque tomorrow lunchtime, as the whole muslim religion demeans women, from their lack of freedom, being second class citizens, subservience to their husbands, not to mention beatings and killings for trivial things. In contrast you object to a club where ladies freely work, make a great living and harm nobody. God (and Allah) indeed, do work in mysterious ways.

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Darkforbid says...
8:14pm Thu 6 Jan 11

Why Rev Vaughan Roberts... afraid of the freedoms of Eden?

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Paul Wesson says...
8:20pm Thu 6 Jan 11

Peter, I agree with you on this one. There are a lot more things out there that degrade women and the family and they seem to receive less attention - as you hint, Islam can get away with far worse obscenities in this country. The decision appears to have been made by the council in any event judging by the published comments. The proximity of the club to the church is a red herring since, as pointed out, the 2 organisations don't operate at the same time. I suspect the club's frontage is discreet and I doubt that any of the working women could easily be identified by the congregation (they might even be part of another church's flock). The police point out that crime has fallen since the opening of the club, which is no surprise. These clubs are expensive and on the few occasions I have been in such establishments I have always been in the company of well educated professional or commissioned gentlemen. The ladies I have spoken to are usually articulate and reasonably well educated as the work funds their higher education or business aspirations. Everybody is an adult and consents to entertain or be entertained.

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mandate says...
3:49am Fri 7 Jan 11

The Rev Roberts said: “We believe that lap-dancing clubs demean women etc. etc.
That's a bit rich coming from a man whose religion has demeaned and excluded women from it's membership for centuries.
Thankfully women today have the freedom to do as they please. It was'nt too far back in our history that liberal and free thinking women were accused as being heretics and burned at the stake by the clergy.

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Lord Palmerstone says...
7:23am Fri 7 Jan 11

Mr Price may have revelled in his 15 minutes of fame but his words will give grounds for an appeal.I do admire the old socialists' graphic use of language-if this entertainment is a "sexual entertainment venue" then what on earth is a bordello? I would have thought "seediness location " would have been more on the button.

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christeenyweeny says...
8:32am Fri 7 Jan 11

i dont get this guys problem, i now live in Malta which is a highly roman catholic country and at the end of my street is a club like this. i never even knew it was there for the first year i lived here because it is so discreate, there is no loud music coming out of it, no one hanging around outside, no scantily clad girls hanging round the doors and never any trouble or fights. The girls that work in there have chosen to work there, not forced. i have been in there myself and its just like a bar with a few girls dancing, yes inside they are scantily clad but from the outside you would never know. if he doesn't like it just dont go inside!!

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newcy says...
10:15am Fri 7 Jan 11

I'm bringing up a child in East Oxford -in fact, in the Cowley Road area -should I be concerned that it is an inappropriate place for a child due to the Cowley Road's reputation for having minor prostitution businesses operating near it -still worse, it has two adult shops... or do I just content myself that my child is not going to enter those shops and is very unlikely to witness ladies plying their trade on the Cowley Road -after all, they must be so indiscreet about it?

Please could the Rev advise? If it's a Catholic church maybe a few Hail Marys should suffice to save my family from the dreadful pit of sin that is Oxford?

Far more lewd acts are carried out in club toilets, and far worse exposure of female flesh is on show in its seedy nightclubs -or does the Rev not mind that?

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guybrush says...
10:26am Fri 7 Jan 11

Alfie Nokes wrote:
Taking bets here that they wouldn't object to a choir-boy dancing club though.
hahaha!!! Is the pope catholic?

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fat Barry says...
11:07am Fri 7 Jan 11

If I was the manager of the lapdancing club, I would put in a complaint about the church being there. A bunch of wierdies, down on their knees worshiping a fictitious person!
Sounds very odd to me.

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manaroundtown says...
1:15pm Fri 7 Jan 11

"We feel that the location of the Lodge is particularly inappropriate as it is right next to the Westgate Centre and car park, which is a gateway into our historic city for many visitors."

I don't think anybody should be trying to say that the westgate carpark acts as giving a good introduction to Oxford

Besides the Lodge is well presented and that doesn't look 'seedy' in any way? maybe if it was empty and derelict that would be better?

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sparky123456 says...
1:19pm Fri 7 Jan 11

ive been to thirst lodge for a night out with the lads as a laugh and i can say it doesn't open until around 10pm and closes around 3am so how does it conflict with the churches activities? there's no advertising as to what is inside so shoppers etc wouldn't know what it was. the private rooms are watched by manned cctv at all times to make sure the girls are safe and no sexual activity takes place. the door staff are some of the best i've seen. I watched them stop a group of young lads coming in because they were too drunk and they were worried about residents and the safety of the girls. I got chatting to one of the girls too who told me a bad night for her was earning £300-500! she said she did it because she was fed up of working in retail and didnt have the qualifications for anything better paid and wanted to buy a house with her boyfriend. so who's actually being affected here? i think they should close the church down, it's in prime retail position and would make far more money for the council if it was a beautiful big car park!

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Andrew:Oxford says...
1:31pm Fri 7 Jan 11

I happened to exit the Westgate Centre via the St Ebbes exit recently. I was shocked and disgusted to see mannequins dressed in nothing but bra and knickers in the window of Primark!!! Why does the church permit such filth on within line of sight of the entrance... Think of the Children!!! :-D

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nobbycheysa says...
1:54pm Fri 7 Jan 11

“It may not be unlawful, but it’s not something we want here.”

Who is "we" Mr Price? People obviously vote with their feet, if it wasn't wanted it wouldn't be in business.

And as for the Church goers....what a bunch of hypocrytes.

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newcy says...
4:27pm Fri 7 Jan 11

Could we have commetns from the St Ebbes church congregation please? Does the Rev really speak for all of them? Loving the way the brutalist design of the Westgate centre is viewed as a gateway into historic Oxford -no wonder tourist numbers seem to be falling! Is the Rev really just concerned about his own view of women?

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Paul Wesson says...
6:16pm Fri 7 Jan 11

The saddest thing, as a sort of lapsed Anglican (high days and holidays), is that this debate reflects badly on the church. By all means try and live a moral life and set an example to others, but I reckon they'd be more likely to follow a church leader who didn't pretend that his/her actions are in accordance with the scriptures. The Bible has little to say on licensing applications or the gateway to historic cities and a lot to say on forgiveness and turning the other cheek. "Love your enemies, do good to those that would harm you" is hardly an exhortation to drive people out of business. One has to ask what Mary of Magdala was doing before she joined up with the early followers of Christ. Why did Christ say, 'Let he that is without sin cast the first stone'? I think there was a moral there. Perhaps the vicar should look inward and consider what his personal failings are, rather than attack others for the failings he sees in them. I wouldn't go around picking splinters out of other people's eyes if I had such a large plank in mine.

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mandate says...
12:00am Sat 8 Jan 11

Religion often suppresses peoples free thinking and freedom of choice. I choose not to live my life totally devoted to the worship of invisible gods.
Times have changed and modern people have moved on and progressed. Maybe it's time for the church to accept that people don't wish to live their lives after the rules, guidelines and condemnations made by religions sects several centuries ago.
I object to certain religious doctrines, but I don't want to close churches because of my objections. I respect the fact that churches are neeceessary for worship and they have an important social function.
I feel that the church must also learn to accept that lap dancing clubs fiill a social function for some people. They should not be trying to have them closed. LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR!

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Lord Palmerstone says...
9:44am Sat 8 Jan 11

" lap dancing clubs fiill a social function for some people."So do a number of very unpleasant and illegal things so I don't think this argument can go very far.
I don't particularly side with the Church on this one but in fairness it would appear to be the council leader who is most likely to be able to shut this establishment, so should not your ire be directed at him?

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oxspurs says...
7:22pm Sat 8 Jan 11

I think its terrible that you want to put a lap dancing club in a church... You should be ashamed of yourself Rev R OBERTS.......

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Ada Strong says...
10:17am Sun 9 Jan 11

I have been an atheist since 1987 but a good deal of the Dawkins type ranting above makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.There are many things of which Oxford should not be proud and Councillor Price and his administration have been responsible for more than one of them.

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Tom Daily says...
1:12pm Sun 9 Jan 11

Peterr Mcvey wrote:
The Rev Roberts said: “We believe that lap-dancing clubs demean women, undermine marriage and depersonalise God’s good gift of sex, so we would not be in favour of such a club anywhere...... So Rev, I expect you to be at the Manzil mosque tomorrow lunchtime, as the whole muslim religion demeans women, from their lack of freedom, being second class citizens, subservience to their husbands, not to mention beatings and killings for trivial things. In contrast you object to a club where ladies freely work, make a great living and harm nobody. God (and Allah) indeed, do work in mysterious ways.
Scantily dressed young ladies would like to push their T**s in perverted middle aged mens faces for financial gain.
Middle age men would like scantily cladded women to push their T**s in their faces for sexual pleasure!
The church gives this concept a big no no......tut...tut...
tut

Now here's the best part, lets all blame the muslims! Yippeee infact lets not stop their lets blame the muslim's for the catholic churches child sex exploitation too, and why not the sparrow that fell from the sky this morning on my lawn to go with it!
What a load of tosh! theres me thinking muslims crying Islamophobia was a figment of their imagination!
Problem is between the church and pervs, end of! nothing to do with muslims, hindus, jews, sikhs, or any one else for that matter!

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Lord Palmerstone says...
6:07pm Sun 9 Jan 11

"Islamophobia"
This is a word made up by the barmy army of the extreme left. What is it meant to mean to them today? Presumably an irrational fear either of the Mohammedan religion or its adherents or both. It is hard to understand how a fear of the adherents of the Mohammedan religion who killed and mutilated many of our citizens in London or many American citizens in the New York can be entirely "irrational"
I confess to feeling a little afraid. Perhaps since I live in a quiet village that is a little irrational. But you Mr. Daily, live in the City of Oxford .... Do you not feel just a teeny weeny bit afraid? I really think you should.

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Peterr Mcvey says...
10:41pm Sun 9 Jan 11

Tom Daily wrote:
Peterr Mcvey wrote:
The Rev Roberts said: “We believe that lap-dancing clubs demean women, undermine marriage and depersonalise God’s good gift of sex, so we would not be in favour of such a club anywhere...... So Rev, I expect you to be at the Manzil mosque tomorrow lunchtime, as the whole muslim religion demeans women, from their lack of freedom, being second class citizens, subservience to their husbands, not to mention beatings and killings for trivial things. In contrast you object to a club where ladies freely work, make a great living and harm nobody. God (and Allah) indeed, do work in mysterious ways.
Scantily dressed young ladies would like to push their T**s in perverted middle aged mens faces for financial gain.
Middle age men would like scantily cladded women to push their T**s in their faces for sexual pleasure!
The church gives this concept a big no no......tut...tut...

tut

Now here's the best part, lets all blame the muslims! Yippeee infact lets not stop their lets blame the muslim's for the catholic churches child sex exploitation too, and why not the sparrow that fell from the sky this morning on my lawn to go with it!
What a load of tosh! theres me thinking muslims crying Islamophobia was a figment of their imagination!
Problem is between the church and pervs, end of! nothing to do with muslims, hindus, jews, sikhs, or any one else for that matter!
Tom perhaps if you read peoples posts, instead of a couple of words then you might get the meaning. But I guess that you also just read the front page of a paper, and know the entire contents inside.

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Wiki Wiki Wah says...
11:18am Wed 12 Jan 11

I'm pretty sure that God wants ladies to show me their gash's at thirst lodge. After all, were it not so, God wouldn't have made me like going there and looking at them so much. We are all Gods children after all.
Didn't Jesus himself say unto Mary Magdalen "do you do extras my love?"

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