Library campaigners hit out over outsourcing

Oxford Mail: Jonathan Hood Jonathan Hood

LIBRARY campaigners criticised county council talks with a US firm which claims it can save at least some of the 20 branches under threat.

Councillors voted through £2m-a-year cuts to the library service on Tuesday, but negotiations are still going on with outsourcing company Library Systems and Service (LSSI).

Council bosses contacted LSSI earlier this month, after the Oxford Mail revealed the firm believed it could save millions of pounds while scaling back branch closures.

County council leader Keith Mitchell said discussions were “positive” and saving money through outsourcing rather than closing branches would be “a wonderful solution.”

LSSI, which runs 70 libraries in the USA, will set out potential savings to the council next week.

But groups opposing council cuts said outsourcing would destroy the library service.

Jonathan Hood, chairman of the Friends of Summertown Library, said campaigners had been contacted by Californian activists opposed to LSSI taking over libraries in the state.

The American campaigners claim outsourcing to LSSI had led to declines in service and resources, charges for inter-library loans, and worse terms and conditions for staff.

Mr Hood said: “We are concerned at the fact the council is even talking to LSSI.

“At the moment, Summertown Library is a community resource where people go to meet or just sit in the garden.

“These are not going to be things LSSI would be keen to fund.

“Under an outsourcing firm, it may remain an efficient system for borrowing books, but libraries are far more than that.”

Neil Clark, of Save Botley Library, said: “The whole ethos of the library service would change if a private company ran it to make profits rather than as a public service.

“Outsourcing would mean losing branches and the end of the library service as we know it.”

LSSI UK’s vice president Stuart Fitzgerald said: “We are library people. It is all we do. If they speak to any of our clients in the US, and ask about how we run the service, they will be blown away.

“When we take over a branch, we get a surge in membership, a surge in usage and a surge in issues.”

He said LSSI could introduce new IT systems, print machines for self-publishing, coffee bars and more flexible buildings so other services could be offered out-of-hours.

He added: “We directly involve local people in their service.

“Our position is to give the community exactly what they want.”

Mr Fitzgerald said he was happy to meet campaign groups to discuss their libraries’ future.

Comments (25)

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12:26pm Thu 17 Feb 11

newcy says...

"He said LSSI could introduce new IT systems, print machines for self-publishing, coffee bars and more flexible buildings so other services could be offered out-of-hours."

NO MORE COFFEE BARS IN OXFORD!!!!! A library is a public service open to all -as in the entire community, not a commercial, profteering enterprise for the middle-classes to command. It should not become an extension of Debenhams cafe and many other 'coffee bars/cafes in the city -where mumsnet snobs have taken over. Oxford is already being dumbed down enough with its promotion and favouring of shallow consumer values -it should remain a city not become a glorified shopping emproium and cafe for idle toffs - everything is pushing it far enough that way already.

LSSI would also most likely only take an interest in a select few of the libraries -rather than those that are where they are most beneficial to the local community. I can just picture them taking over BBL library, reducing opening hours, selling off stock, then closing it down, and selling whatever can be sold at highest price.

Similar US groups and trusts have done the same with enough UK companies.
"He said LSSI could introduce new IT systems, print machines for self-publishing, coffee bars and more flexible buildings so other services could be offered out-of-hours." NO MORE COFFEE BARS IN OXFORD!!!!! A library is a public service open to all -as in the entire community, not a commercial, profteering enterprise for the middle-classes to command. It should not become an extension of Debenhams cafe and many other 'coffee bars/cafes in the city -where mumsnet snobs have taken over. Oxford is already being dumbed down enough with its promotion and favouring of shallow consumer values -it should remain a city not become a glorified shopping emproium and cafe for idle toffs - everything is pushing it far enough that way already. LSSI would also most likely only take an interest in a select few of the libraries -rather than those that are where they are most beneficial to the local community. I can just picture them taking over BBL library, reducing opening hours, selling off stock, then closing it down, and selling whatever can be sold at highest price. Similar US groups and trusts have done the same with enough UK companies. newcy

1:00pm Thu 17 Feb 11

Shirley Burnham says...

The recent history of Hounslow, the first local authority to privatise services, should raise a red flag for councils contemplating similar measures. Councils may discover in time that for profit companies are in business to make profits. What was the recent result of Hounslow's optimism when Laing took on services, including libraries, in 2008 ? This :

http://www.hounslowc
hronicle.co.uk/west-
london-news/local-ho
unslow-news/2011/01/
14/last-chapter-thre
at-for-eight-hounslo
w-borough-libraries-
109642-27986569/
.
Today, Suffok councillor Kathy Pollard is quoted in a report on Sky News that "The council has had a contract with BT for the past six years and it's estimated a £100m overspend by the end of the 10-year contract period."
.
Also, California has rejected LSSI's bid to take over its public libraries. Why is that ? Rejected in the USA ? Is that why the firm is hoping for a foothold in the UK ? I do not know. We should know.

The sums must be done; people are not being given the full story by any means. Research needed, Bicester Advertiser !
The recent history of Hounslow, the first local authority to privatise services, should raise a red flag for councils contemplating similar measures. Councils may discover in time that for profit companies are in business to make profits. What was the recent result of Hounslow's optimism when Laing took on services, including libraries, in 2008 ? This : http://www.hounslowc hronicle.co.uk/west- london-news/local-ho unslow-news/2011/01/ 14/last-chapter-thre at-for-eight-hounslo w-borough-libraries- 109642-27986569/ . Today, Suffok councillor Kathy Pollard is quoted in a report on Sky News that "The council has had a contract with BT for the past six years and it's estimated a £100m overspend by the end of the 10-year contract period." . Also, California has rejected LSSI's bid to take over its public libraries. Why is that ? Rejected in the USA ? Is that why the firm is hoping for a foothold in the UK ? I do not know. We should know. The sums must be done; people are not being given the full story by any means. Research needed, Bicester Advertiser ! Shirley Burnham

1:28pm Thu 17 Feb 11

Oxford taxpayer says...

"At the moment, Summertown Library is a community resource where people go to meet or just sit in the garden".

Do you need a library for that?
"At the moment, Summertown Library is a community resource where people go to meet or just sit in the garden". Do you need a library for that? Oxford taxpayer

2:43pm Thu 17 Feb 11

Headington mum says...

He said LSSI could introduce new IT systems, print machines for self-publishing, coffee bars and more flexible buildings...

How are they going to change the buildings - do they realise that many of them are listed and they can't just knock them down and rebuild them with a Starbucks attached?
He said LSSI could introduce new IT systems, print machines for self-publishing, coffee bars and more flexible buildings... How are they going to change the buildings - do they realise that many of them are listed and they can't just knock them down and rebuild them with a Starbucks attached? Headington mum

2:44pm Thu 17 Feb 11

newcy says...

No, but the point is that the library has the added benefit of a publicly accessible garden. Not all the residents in Summertown have their own gardens, and the library's one attracts more people than might necessarily come just for the library.
No, but the point is that the library has the added benefit of a publicly accessible garden. Not all the residents in Summertown have their own gardens, and the library's one attracts more people than might necessarily come just for the library. newcy

4:01pm Thu 17 Feb 11

godzilla says...

Here we go again selling out to the bloody yanks cant we do nothing for ourself's
Here we go again selling out to the bloody yanks cant we do nothing for ourself's godzilla

4:16pm Thu 17 Feb 11

godzilla says...

Just a footnote to my last comment Keith mitchell is a idiot
Just a footnote to my last comment Keith mitchell is a idiot godzilla

4:50pm Thu 17 Feb 11

Alan Wylie says...

If this is agreed it will be a disaster for the whole of the public library service, its users and staff. LSSI make profits in the US by employing non-unionised staff, not providing pensions and basically deprofessionalisng the service. Do users really want their libraries run by a private company that is majority owned by a private equity firm? They have also been flung out of one state for late payment of bills and another for ignoring state rules on setting up a library board and are being fought in many other states by library user groups unhappy with their ways of working.
Please do all you can to oppose this.
If this is agreed it will be a disaster for the whole of the public library service, its users and staff. LSSI make profits in the US by employing non-unionised staff, not providing pensions and basically deprofessionalisng the service. Do users really want their libraries run by a private company that is majority owned by a private equity firm? They have also been flung out of one state for late payment of bills and another for ignoring state rules on setting up a library board and are being fought in many other states by library user groups unhappy with their ways of working. Please do all you can to oppose this. Alan Wylie

5:21pm Thu 17 Feb 11

Mr peter Mcvey says...

“At the moment, Summertown Library is a community resource where people go to meet or just sit in the garden........

Best we close it immediately then Jonny. Librarys are supposed to be a place for reading and borrowing books, not an upper middles class mumsies meeting place.
“At the moment, Summertown Library is a community resource where people go to meet or just sit in the garden........ Best we close it immediately then Jonny. Librarys are supposed to be a place for reading and borrowing books, not an upper middles class mumsies meeting place. Mr peter Mcvey

9:43am Fri 18 Feb 11

Darkforbid says...

Around the County big name book shops are closing... With the opening of £1-2 book shops books are no longer out of reach of those in poverty... And with most people using the internet as their information finding tool is any public spending on books worth while?
Around the County big name book shops are closing... With the opening of £1-2 book shops books are no longer out of reach of those in poverty... And with most people using the internet as their information finding tool is any public spending on books worth while? Darkforbid

1:19pm Fri 18 Feb 11

manolito says...

As Shirley and Alan rightly point out, this move will be a disaster and will spell the beginning of the end of the public library network in this country. Service quality will be compromised by the desire to extract profit. Library staff are already paid peanuts and will see pay, conditions and staff numbers decimated. This will have a knock-on effect on the level of library service that the Council Tax payers of Oxford have already paid for. Try googling LSSI and see the catalogue of disaster and discord that they have generated in the US.

@oxford taxpayer
Presumably you are concerned that you will be paying the same Council tax in 2011-12, but for only half of the library service that you used to have - all thanks to the greedy incompetents in the City that caused the deficit that the public sector is now being forced to pay for.
As Shirley and Alan rightly point out, this move will be a disaster and will spell the beginning of the end of the public library network in this country. Service quality will be compromised by the desire to extract profit. Library staff are already paid peanuts and will see pay, conditions and staff numbers decimated. This will have a knock-on effect on the level of library service that the Council Tax payers of Oxford have already paid for. Try googling LSSI and see the catalogue of disaster and discord that they have generated in the US. @oxford taxpayer Presumably you are concerned that you will be paying the same Council tax in 2011-12, but for only half of the library service that you used to have - all thanks to the greedy incompetents in the City that caused the deficit that the public sector is now being forced to pay for. manolito

1:28pm Fri 18 Feb 11

manolito says...

@Darkforbid

What reputable research are you referencing that 'most people are using the internet as their information finding tool'? Presumably, you include the 20-25% who do not have internet access and who may well be using their local library to access the internet?
How many people will be able to afford ICT hardware and broadband subscriptions - or even £1-2 books -after they lose their jobs and have to exist on £65 per week? How comprehensive a bookstock will your '£1-2 bookshops' have for the purposive reader (who may not actually be able to afford a Kindle and who may be trying to pursue self-improvement through life-long learning objectives)?
You don't really seem to have thought this through, do you?
@Darkforbid What reputable research are you referencing that 'most people are using the internet as their information finding tool'? Presumably, you include the 20-25% who do not have internet access and who may well be using their local library to access the internet? How many people will be able to afford ICT hardware and broadband subscriptions - or even £1-2 books -after they lose their jobs and have to exist on £65 per week? How comprehensive a bookstock will your '£1-2 bookshops' have for the purposive reader (who may not actually be able to afford a Kindle and who may be trying to pursue self-improvement through life-long learning objectives)? You don't really seem to have thought this through, do you? manolito

1:34pm Fri 18 Feb 11

manolito says...

@Mr peter Mcvey
I think that you will find that every library will have books and act as 'a place for reading and borrowing books'. Perhaps you might prefer it if library customers made a point of not having the audacity to associate with each other on library premises......?
@Mr peter Mcvey I think that you will find that every library will have books and act as 'a place for reading and borrowing books'. Perhaps you might prefer it if library customers made a point of not having the audacity to associate with each other on library premises......? manolito

3:23pm Fri 18 Feb 11

Darkforbid says...

-Presumably, you include the 20-25% who do not have internet access and who may well be using their local library to access the internet?-

Or many of the other free internet providers in Oxford

-How many people will be able to afford ICT hardware and broadband subscriptions-?

The internet is cheaply available on mobiles and free on wifi...mine cost £5 a month
-Presumably, you include the 20-25% who do not have internet access and who may well be using their local library to access the internet?- Or many of the other free internet providers in Oxford -How many people will be able to afford ICT hardware and broadband subscriptions-? The internet is cheaply available on mobiles and free on wifi...mine cost £5 a month Darkforbid

10:06am Sat 19 Feb 11

manolito says...

@Darkforbid

Presumably you are not living on Jobseekers Allowance. If you were, buying and running laptops and mobiles would be an unaffordable luxury.
I notice that you have no answer to the other points that I raised.
@Darkforbid Presumably you are not living on Jobseekers Allowance. If you were, buying and running laptops and mobiles would be an unaffordable luxury. I notice that you have no answer to the other points that I raised. manolito

10:28am Sat 19 Feb 11

manolito says...

@Darkforbid
Incidentally, why would any commercial organisation (i.e. non-library internet providers) offer free internet access?
Perhaps you could provide a list of them?
@Darkforbid Incidentally, why would any commercial organisation (i.e. non-library internet providers) offer free internet access? Perhaps you could provide a list of them? manolito

5:32pm Sat 19 Feb 11

Darkforbid says...

-Presumably you are not living on Jobseekers Allowance-

Back on JSA at the moment not for the money BTW just because some of the service I now need to access have silly on benefit or pay for access rules... But even without benefit I still expect to pay for things I use

-If you were, buying and running laptops and mobiles would be an unaffordable luxury-

Like the out of date laptop and mobile I use now and was running on no benefits... Yep there old and slower but cheap

So your wrong!

-I notice that you have no answer to the other points that I raised.-

Sorry I will now

-How many people will be able to afford ICT hardware and
broadband subscriptions - or
even £1-2 books -after they lose their jobs and have to exist on £65 per week?-

The internet is cheaply available on most cheap mobiles... £1-2 pound a book is not the type of expensive spending people should turn to the government for

-How comprehensive a bookstock will your '£1-2 bookshops' have for
the purposive reader (who may
not actually be able to afford a
Kindle and who may be trying to pursue self-improvement
through life-long learning
objectives)?-

What do you think... Go to one and find out try the one just up the hill from Alldates PO... If you need educational books to one of the many centres that provide that for free

-You don't really seem to have
thought this through, do you?-

Why would I need to I live in what some call poverty... You just guess what its like
-Presumably you are not living on Jobseekers Allowance- Back on JSA at the moment not for the money BTW just because some of the service I now need to access have silly on benefit or pay for access rules... But even without benefit I still expect to pay for things I use -If you were, buying and running laptops and mobiles would be an unaffordable luxury- Like the out of date laptop and mobile I use now and was running on no benefits... Yep there old and slower but cheap So your wrong! -I notice that you have no answer to the other points that I raised.- Sorry I will now -How many people will be able to afford ICT hardware and broadband subscriptions - or even £1-2 books -after they lose their jobs and have to exist on £65 per week?- The internet is cheaply available on most cheap mobiles... £1-2 pound a book is not the type of expensive spending people should turn to the government for -How comprehensive a bookstock will your '£1-2 bookshops' have for the purposive reader (who may not actually be able to afford a Kindle and who may be trying to pursue self-improvement through life-long learning objectives)?- What do you think... Go to one and find out try the one just up the hill from Alldates PO... If you need educational books to one of the many centres that provide that for free -You don't really seem to have thought this through, do you?- Why would I need to I live in what some call poverty... You just guess what its like Darkforbid

5:42pm Sat 19 Feb 11

Darkforbid says...

-@Darkforbid
Incidentally, why would any
commercial organisation (i.e.
non-library internet providers)
offer free internet access?
Perhaps you could provide a list of them?-

Try google
-@Darkforbid Incidentally, why would any commercial organisation (i.e. non-library internet providers) offer free internet access? Perhaps you could provide a list of them?- Try google Darkforbid

9:32pm Sat 19 Feb 11

John Charles says...

For much of the working population of Oxfordshire libraries are open at very inconvenient times. May I suggest the main libraries open all day Saturday and Sunday -- and from Midday to 8pm on at least three weekdays. The present opening times are geared towards the convenience of staff rather than customers. That is why many are not well-used.
For much of the working population of Oxfordshire libraries are open at very inconvenient times. May I suggest the main libraries open all day Saturday and Sunday -- and from Midday to 8pm on at least three weekdays. The present opening times are geared towards the convenience of staff rather than customers. That is why many are not well-used. John Charles

9:52pm Sat 19 Feb 11

Darkforbid says...

I say just have one... fund no limit Oxford media facility... One so big its first thing the tourist see
I say just have one... fund no limit Oxford media facility... One so big its first thing the tourist see Darkforbid

5:53pm Sun 20 Feb 11

manolito says...

@Darkforbid
Given that you are seriously trying to justify the closure of public libraries by saying that there are some cheap '£1-2 bookshops' that people can use instead, perhaps you can explain how these shops will soon be carrying out all of the other functions of a modern public library service? I can run through these for you, if needs be, although it might take some time.
(By the way, I don't think you have really addressed the inability of '£1-2 bookshops' to provide the comprehensive range of bookstock (never mind large print and talking books for the visually impaired, picture books for the under 5's, etc) that one can find at their local public library).

You seem to think that the government should not be spending money on books for libraries. Does this mean that you prefer your taxes to be spent on bailing out bankers instead? This cost billions and billions more than is spent on our public library service. I also think that - unlike you - the vast majority of the rest of the country would think that funding libraries is an excellent and cost-effective use of public money.

I am curious as to the identity of the 'education book centres' that you refer to? Perhaps you are actually thinking of public libraries, but have just not realised it yet......

Also, can you explain in more detail how you manage to stretch your minimal JSA beyond basic foodstuffs,paying utility bills, etc, to encompass your (albeit out-moded) new technology and plethora of £1-2 books?

PS You still haven't quoted the specific research to support your contention that 'most people are using the internet as their information finding tool'?
@Darkforbid Given that you are seriously trying to justify the closure of public libraries by saying that there are some cheap '£1-2 bookshops' that people can use instead, perhaps you can explain how these shops will soon be carrying out all of the other functions of a modern public library service? I can run through these for you, if needs be, although it might take some time. (By the way, I don't think you have really addressed the inability of '£1-2 bookshops' to provide the comprehensive range of bookstock (never mind large print and talking books for the visually impaired, picture books for the under 5's, etc) that one can find at their local public library). You seem to think that the government should not be spending money on books for libraries. Does this mean that you prefer your taxes to be spent on bailing out bankers instead? This cost billions and billions more than is spent on our public library service. I also think that - unlike you - the vast majority of the rest of the country would think that funding libraries is an excellent and cost-effective use of public money. I am curious as to the identity of the 'education book centres' that you refer to? Perhaps you are actually thinking of public libraries, but have just not realised it yet...... Also, can you explain in more detail how you manage to stretch your minimal JSA beyond basic foodstuffs,paying utility bills, etc, to encompass your (albeit out-moded) new technology and plethora of £1-2 books? PS You still haven't quoted the specific research to support your contention that 'most people are using the internet as their information finding tool'? manolito

9:35pm Sun 20 Feb 11

Darkforbid says...

-Given that you are seriously
trying to justify the closure of
public libraries by saying that
there are some cheap '£1-2
bookshops' that people can use instead, perhaps you can explain how these shops will soon be carrying out all of the other functions of a modern public-


library service? I can run through
these for you, if needs be,
although it might take some
time.

Missing my point books are cheap but not as cheap as information is this data age... Yes I know libraries provid other information or you find the same info on their websites

-You seem to think that the
government should not be
spending money on books for
libraries. Does this mean that
you prefer your taxes to be
spent on bailing out bankers
instead?-

Yes I'm sure the print trade loves the money they get from the library service ever wondered how many writers the non library users support?

Banks? Anyone who falls for this rich vs poor angle is just falling for the old tory act.

-I am curious as to the identity of the 'education book centres' that you refer to? Perhaps you are actually thinking of public
libraries, but have just not
realised it yet......-

No I was thinking about all the adult education services in Oxford although I'd say use learn direct

-Also, can you explain in more
detail how you manage to
stretch your minimal JSA beyond basic foodstuffs,paying utility bills, etc, to encompass your (albeit out-moded) new
technology and plethora of £1-2- books?

Would you like a blueprint of my DNA as well?!

-PS You still haven't quoted the
specific research to support your contention that 'most people are using the internet as their information finding tool'?-

When you provide the scientific proof that supports your view... As it goes you seen to be the type of person that expects information to be found for you...
-Given that you are seriously trying to justify the closure of public libraries by saying that there are some cheap '£1-2 bookshops' that people can use instead, perhaps you can explain how these shops will soon be carrying out all of the other functions of a modern public- library service? I can run through these for you, if needs be, although it might take some time. Missing my point books are cheap but not as cheap as information is this data age... Yes I know libraries provid other information or you find the same info on their websites -You seem to think that the government should not be spending money on books for libraries. Does this mean that you prefer your taxes to be spent on bailing out bankers instead?- Yes I'm sure the print trade loves the money they get from the library service ever wondered how many writers the non library users support? Banks? Anyone who falls for this rich vs poor angle is just falling for the old tory act. -I am curious as to the identity of the 'education book centres' that you refer to? Perhaps you are actually thinking of public libraries, but have just not realised it yet......- No I was thinking about all the adult education services in Oxford although I'd say use learn direct -Also, can you explain in more detail how you manage to stretch your minimal JSA beyond basic foodstuffs,paying utility bills, etc, to encompass your (albeit out-moded) new technology and plethora of £1-2- books? Would you like a blueprint of my DNA as well?! -PS You still haven't quoted the specific research to support your contention that 'most people are using the internet as their information finding tool'?- When you provide the scientific proof that supports your view... As it goes you seen to be the type of person that expects information to be found for you... Darkforbid

1:44am Tue 22 Feb 11

Keith Mitchell is a real good looking boy says...

"As it goes you seen to be the type of person that expects information to be found for you..."

And why don't you provide the evidence that you didn't burgle my house last night?
"As it goes you seen to be the type of person that expects information to be found for you..." And why don't you provide the evidence that you didn't burgle my house last night? Keith Mitchell is a real good looking boy

1:47am Tue 22 Feb 11

Keith Mitchell is a real good looking boy says...

John Charles wrote:
For much of the working population of Oxfordshire libraries are open at very inconvenient times. May I suggest the main libraries open all day Saturday and Sunday -- and from Midday to 8pm on at least three weekdays. The present opening times are geared towards the convenience of staff rather than customers. That is why many are not well-used.
Why don't you change your 'convenient' working hours and replace them with one's that allow you more flexibility to attend libraries?
[quote][p][bold]John Charles[/bold] wrote: For much of the working population of Oxfordshire libraries are open at very inconvenient times. May I suggest the main libraries open all day Saturday and Sunday -- and from Midday to 8pm on at least three weekdays. The present opening times are geared towards the convenience of staff rather than customers. That is why many are not well-used.[/p][/quote]Why don't you change your 'convenient' working hours and replace them with one's that allow you more flexibility to attend libraries? Keith Mitchell is a real good looking boy

10:46am Tue 22 Feb 11

manolito says...

@Darkforbid

- Missing my point books are cheap but not as cheap as information is this data age... Yes I know libraries provid other information or you find the same info on their websites

You are labouring under a profound misapprehension if you think that all information is free 'in this data age'. Electronic access offers suppliers the opportunity to make people pay through the nose for access. And do you really think that websites all provide authoritative, impartial and reliable information? If you do, you really need to go to your nearest public library, where an experienced librarian can show you that many sites are anything but.

- Yes I'm sure the print trade loves the money they get from the library service ever wondered how many writers the non library users support?

Do you have the same restricted view of how many children the childless tax-payers support, in terms of public spending on schools? Library users and non-users support both writers and the print trade through private and public expenditure. It is called a 'mixed economy' and is the sort of economic system that is employed by successful countries.

- Banks? Anyone who falls for this rich vs poor angle is just falling for the old tory act.

Not sure that I understand the point you are trying to make here. Are you implying that there was no economic crash in 2008? Perhaps you need to change your sources of current information in 'this data age'. Try checking out the 300's section at your local library. I'm sure that this will help to clarify that the more equal socieities are also the more successful and harmonious societies.

- No I was thinking about all the adult education services in Oxford although I'd say use learn direct

I don't think that Learn Direct will be around for much longer (or if it is, it will be with a much truncated remit) Access to Adult Education has been (and is being) progressively impaired by under-funding and increased charges. I marvel at the ability of your JSA to encompass this as well as '£1-2 books', cheap mobiles and laptops, food, utility bills, etc, etc.

- Would you like a blueprint of my DNA as well?!

No thanks. I can't see what relevance it has to this discussion. I was simply asking you to provide rationales for the points that you are raising, in your somewhat scatter-gun and erratic justification for not funding public libraries.

-When you provide the scientific proof that supports your view... As it goes you seen to be the type of person that expects information to be found for you...

I think that this could probably be interpreted as 'you don't have any evidence' to support your contention.......
@Darkforbid - Missing my point books are cheap but not as cheap as information is this data age... Yes I know libraries provid other information or you find the same info on their websites You are labouring under a profound misapprehension if you think that all information is free 'in this data age'. Electronic access offers suppliers the opportunity to make people pay through the nose for access. And do you really think that websites all provide authoritative, impartial and reliable information? If you do, you really need to go to your nearest public library, where an experienced librarian can show you that many sites are anything but. - Yes I'm sure the print trade loves the money they get from the library service ever wondered how many writers the non library users support? Do you have the same restricted view of how many children the childless tax-payers support, in terms of public spending on schools? Library users and non-users support both writers and the print trade through private and public expenditure. It is called a 'mixed economy' and is the sort of economic system that is employed by successful countries. - Banks? Anyone who falls for this rich vs poor angle is just falling for the old tory act. Not sure that I understand the point you are trying to make here. Are you implying that there was no economic crash in 2008? Perhaps you need to change your sources of current information in 'this data age'. Try checking out the 300's section at your local library. I'm sure that this will help to clarify that the more equal socieities are also the more successful and harmonious societies. - No I was thinking about all the adult education services in Oxford although I'd say use learn direct I don't think that Learn Direct will be around for much longer (or if it is, it will be with a much truncated remit) Access to Adult Education has been (and is being) progressively impaired by under-funding and increased charges. I marvel at the ability of your JSA to encompass this as well as '£1-2 books', cheap mobiles and laptops, food, utility bills, etc, etc. - Would you like a blueprint of my DNA as well?! No thanks. I can't see what relevance it has to this discussion. I was simply asking you to provide rationales for the points that you are raising, in your somewhat scatter-gun and erratic justification for not funding public libraries. -When you provide the scientific proof that supports your view... As it goes you seen to be the type of person that expects information to be found for you... I think that this could probably be interpreted as 'you don't have any evidence' to support your contention....... manolito

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