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Police and council at odds over cutting 49 county speed limits (From Oxford Mail)
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Police and council at odds over cutting 49 county speed limits
7:10am Tuesday 9th February 2010
SPEED limits on many of Oxfordshire’s main roads could be cut, despite police objections.
Transport bosses are considering imposing slower limits on 49 stretches of 24 of the county’s A and B roads.
The move follows a year-long £20,000 review designed to improve road safety, and a decision on the move will be taken by transport chiefs Ian Hudspeth and Rodney Rose on Thursday.
The Government also ordered councils to conduct reviews in a bid to give consistency for drivers across the country, a county spokesman said.
However, Thames Valley Police has objected to more than half of the proposed cuts – 27 in total – arguing accident rates and vehicle speeds do not justify the reductions.
A council report shows police believe there would be “little or no compliance” from motorists if plans to cut the limit from 70mph to 50mph on a section of the A40 near Oxford’s Cutteslowe roundabout are introduced.
However, Summertown and Wolvercote councillor Jean Fooks said: “I’m sorry police, but I still think it’s still important to reduce speeds.
“This would certainly help make the road safer and reduce the noise impact from the road for local residents.”
Police have also objected to proposals to cut the speed limit from 60mph to 50mph on the B4022 between Charlbury and Hailey.
Paul Bennett launched a petition to cut the speed limit after his wife Linda became the eighth person to die on the road in a decade.
There was no suggestion speed was involved in Mrs Bennett’s death, but Mr Bennett said: “Setting limits too low can tempt people to overtake and I think there needs to be a more variable approach to limits. However, 60mph anywhere along that road is wrong.
“I think the speed should be cut to 40mph between Finstock and Charlbury.”
Mark McArthur-Christie, chairman of the Oxford group of the Institute of Advanced Motorists, has criticised the County Hall plan.
He said: “If we ask people to drive substantially below the natural speed of the road, they invest more mental energy in compliance than driving safely.
“I hope we don’t see queues of frustrated drivers driving over the county, but that’s my experience on roads where the limits have already been cut to 50mph.”
Last year, the number of road deaths in Oxfordshire fell from 48 to 30, the lowest level since records began 35 years ago.
The council believes its review, which also recommends increasing speed limits on six stretches of road, will continue to make the county’s roads safer.
If approved, signage for new speed limits is expected to cost about £160,000, with the changes coming into force after March.
Five months ago, the council introduced 20mph speed limits on almost all Oxford’s residential roads, despite objections by police.
A police spokesman said: “The default speed limit for country roads remains 60mph and the public has an expectation that a lower limit is imposed for well-evidenced safety reasons.
“Where the criteria can’t be evidenced to be met, then the default limit should be maintained.”
Council spokesman Owen Morton said the council was aware of the police objections, which he said would be considered by councillors.
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Your Say YourOxford
Concerned one, Oxford says...
9:54am Tue 9 Feb 10
Typical comment from the 'do as I say' Lib Dems in Oxford, they have never listened to the experts but always know best.
Englishman, Witney says...
10:25am Tue 9 Feb 10
common sense view, Oxford says...
10:27am Tue 9 Feb 10
firstwitney, Witney says...
10:44am Tue 9 Feb 10
LadyPenelope, West Oxon says...
11:31am Tue 9 Feb 10
On a road with a 50mph limit, then in dry conditions with good visibility, it's perfectly reasonable to do 60mph. But, if it's raining, or there's surface water etc... then 40mph would be more suitable.
In built up areas, then it's common sense to slow down a bit during the day when it's busy, people around etc..., but at night, the 20mph is daft.
nickwilcock, Cogges says...
11:31am Tue 9 Feb 10
“Where the criteria can’t be evidenced to be met, then the default limit should be maintained.”
That is a very clear and concise comment which these speed-obsessed councillors must heed.
If they have so much money available to waste on more roadsigns to litter the countryside, surely they would improve road safety rather more if the budget was transferred to pothole-filling?
oxbow, Oxford says...
11:40am Tue 9 Feb 10
... and then completely ignored as with all other consultations. I've never heard such rubbish. When will the council learn that we're in a democrocy. Only when we can get rid of them, but then of course the next one will be just as bad.
Sophia, Oxford says...
1:24pm Tue 9 Feb 10
The Council's actions are therefore quite barmy, and incredible given the cuts that they say they face
Fooks off
JeanPiddle, Little Whimple says...
2:46pm Tue 9 Feb 10
Hugh Jaeger, Oxford says...
3:05pm Tue 9 Feb 10
If the police thought lower speed limits would reduce accidents and casualties, they would be amongst the first to propose them. Their unrivalled amount of experience of casualties has led Thames Valley Police to oppose Oxfordshire's obsession with lower speed limits for much of the last decade. TVP's practical and realistic advice is that speed limits must be "self-enforcing", i.e. what a consensus of drivers will understand as suiting each road, and therefore what most drivers will obey.
Driving instructors, the IAM and other groups who teach and promote higher driving standards all oppose the limits. All these groups have great experience of training drivers to be safer, and know that most current speed limits are either about right or too low. The "natural" speed limits that the IAM's Mark McArthur Christie suggests are very similar to what the police call "self-enforcing" speed limits.
How much money has our County Council already squandered on speed limit reductions with scant justification and benefit? How many more deaths and injuries would that money have saved had it been spent on real casualty reduction such as junction improvements, Toucan crossings and disabled-friendly Puffin crossings?
The latest 50 and 40 mph proposals could cost £160,000. Last year the Oxford-wide 20 mph limit cost about £233,000. Hardly anyone obeys it, so now the County Council wants to spend more on "additional measures", i.e. more traffic calming. The county council is squandering our council tax on politically-motivate
d gimmickry.
The only justification for lower limits would be evidence that accidents were caused by vehicles travelling within the existing limit but faster than the proposed lower limit. Road safety officers and Conservative councillors have imposed wave after wave of unnaturally low speed limits on Oxfordshire without ever producing such evidence in most cases. The longer that they fail to do so, the more drivers will suspect that the evidence doesn't exist.
Lib Dem councillors, CyclOx and OxPA all believe in lower speed limits. I have repeatedly asked CyclOx and OxPA to produce relevant, credible evidence for their belief but neither has yet done so.
CyclOx and OxPA are not offering to fund extra police to enforce new limits. Thames Valley would have to reduce the amount of time that officers spend on duties that are more worthwhile for protecting the public.
Cyclists deserve to feel safe and respected using the carriageway, rather than be ghettoised onto cycleways. Where rural roads have no footpath, pedestrians must be able to feel safe walking on the edge of the cariageway. The article didn't mention equestrians, who also have a right to use the roads and deserve to be treated considerately.
However, the way to achieve safety is to educate drivers to respect and consider non-motorised road users. Unnaturally low speed limits will reduce drivers' respect for safety education.
Oxfordshire's road safety department has become too much of a one-trick pony. We could be much safer if the old horse were to learn a wider range of tricks.
Lord Palmerston, Weston Turville says...
3:12pm Tue 9 Feb 10
BartSimpson, Springfield says...
3:16pm Tue 9 Feb 10
jamess, oxford says...
4:30pm Tue 9 Feb 10
I'm fed up to the back teeth of this undemocratic and nonsensical meddling by people who don't know what they're doing. I'm very much looking forward to having the opportunity of voting them out at the nearest opportunity and implore everyone else to do likewise.
JeanPiddle, Little Whimple says...
4:57pm Tue 9 Feb 10
Hugh Jaeger, Oxford says...
5:18pm Tue 9 Feb 10
JanetJ, oxford says...
6:53pm Tue 9 Feb 10
LadyPenelope, West Oxon says...
8:53pm Tue 9 Feb 10
JanetJ wrote:I now know someone who likes the 20mph limit; apparently at that speed it's really easy to oggle the ladies as you don't feel compelled to pay so much attention to the road! Not exactly what it was meant to be in place for, but nice to meet someone who had a positive thing to say about it!
It just won't be enforced will it?? a bit like the 20mph limits in Oxford. Has anyone been prosecuted yet for exceeding 20mph in these areas??
oxfordborn, ex-oxford says...
10:02pm Tue 9 Feb 10
Setting unneccesarily low limits merely serves to bring all speed limits into disrepute.
I agree with Lady P, attention is very much more likely to wander when speed is low.
Lord Palmerston, Weston Turville says...
10:34pm Tue 9 Feb 10
HughdeGree, HughdeGree says...
11:45pm Tue 9 Feb 10
RocketMan, Oxford says...
1:57am Wed 10 Feb 10
No, seriously, where is the tangible evidence ie based on number of accidents on these roads to justify the need for blanket county wide speed reductions. Show us Mrs Fooks. Then we may or may not be convinced.
It is plain common sense really, it is not speed per sa which causes accidents, it is bad driving. having more cars bunched together is not necessarliy going to improve the situation.
If the police advise a speed based on the type and situational factors of the road, then I would rather believe them, than ideological councilors.
Obviously, sitting in a long tail of slow moving traffic is going to also increase carbon footprint.
I rest my case.
Petre Mcvay, Barton says...
8:47am Wed 10 Feb 10
Petre Mcvay, Barton says...
8:52am Wed 10 Feb 10
Sophia wrote:Sophia. You are not my ex-neighbour are you. She always used to tell Jean to fook off. That was when she was in a polite mood !!
Bizarre PC madness. Traffic fatalaties have fallen year after year after year. Our roads are safer now than they have ever been and are amongst the safest in the world
The Council's actions are therefore quite barmy, and incredible given the cuts that they say they face
Fooks off
LadyPenelope, West Oxon says...
10:42am Wed 10 Feb 10
Rocketman, you are absolutely correct, but bad driving requires police presence and effort to make money, whereas speed is easy to catch by sticking up a speed camera to rake in the cash.
It's not about safety, it's about money unfortunately.
dogood, oxford says...
12:10pm Wed 10 Feb 10
Noodle999, Witney says...
1:26pm Wed 10 Feb 10
Adrian1, says...
1:49pm Wed 10 Feb 10
Adrian1, says...
1:55pm Wed 10 Feb 10
john.steel@btinternet.com, says...
12:09pm Sat 20 Feb 10
I understand that this policy is a nationally adopted one, driven by central government. This only magnifies the problem rather than justifies the action.
The real problem is that of appropriate driver training. If the government want to reduce accident statistics in all classes of driving, then reviewing DSA standards is a must. There should be proper consultation with those organisations involved in delivering advanced training with an objective of integrating some of the techniques and philosophies taught during advanced training. Any review needs to be practical and relevant not Whitehall theory.
Please remember that on that practical note, most Police forces, when training response drivers strongly advice never breaking the speed limit by more than 20mph. This of course will include both Fire and Ambulances. The action of reducing the maximum speed limit to 50mph could have the effect of increasing response times and potentially putting lives in danger.
Some local authorities have taken the approach of investing the little money they have available in supporting driver training. Targeting more vulnerable groups such as motorcyclists and scooter riders as well as young drivers is an investment in all road safety for the now and the future.
The financial support can be a little as £60 per person and the training can be delivered either through commercial training organisations, or through one of the national charities such as Institute of Advanced Motorists or RoSPA. Who delivers the training is less important than the training itself. To a local council the administration is minimal, in that mostly this is done by the training organisation. Paperwork is submitted, checks are completed then reimbursed the nominated amount. It should be a simple accounting process which all councils will already have in place.
Before any final decision is made please take into account the cause of most accidents is driver error, that is lack of observations around them, and planning for their subsequent manoeuvre, be that overtaking or turning in or out of a junction, or simply driving / riding around a bend. Correcting these driver issues is the only real way forward otherwise a head on collision at a closing speed of 100mph (2 x 50mph) is likely to produce just as many fatalities as one at 120mph (2 x 60mph).
Please plan for the future as well as today.
Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts
Councillors Jean Fooks and John Goddard
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nickwilcock, Cogges says...
9:01am Tue 9 Feb 10
For once in your lives, 'tranpsort bosses', LISTEN to the sound words of the real experts, the police and STOP your ever-increasing 'war on the motorist'. Didn't you once pledge to do that?