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Muslim urges: keep swimming

10:00am Saturday 17th March 2007

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A Muslim woman hoping to train to be a life-guard in Oxford has said faith should not stop people learning how to swim.

Maryam Ramzy spoke after a row broke out when a Muslim woman was allowed to take a sauna and then swim while wearing a full-length robe and headscarf at a city leisure centre.

The centre, run by David Lloyd Leisure, has since said that members should wear "less voluminous" outfits when swimming for health, safety and hygiene reasons.

Mrs Ramzy, who lives in Cowley, helps run a monthly Muslim-women only swimming session at Blackbird Leys pool.

She said: "At the swimming pool, the lifeguard and teacher are both women and we swim as Muslim women all together. So, as there are no men there, we don't have to wear headscarfs and, while we don't wear swimming costumes, we can wear T-shirts and leggings.

"Islam says our clothes must be covering and are not allowed to be see-through, but if there are only women there there is no need to have your head covered.

"It's very important for us to keep fit and keep healthy and that's why we have set up this facility. You come across an awful lot of people who simply can't swim because they haven't had the opportunity to do it in a 'halal' environment."

Mrs Ramzy said: "I know plenty of Muslim women who go to saunas and swimming pools during the women-only time and it is available in Oxford.

"The council makes an effort to accommodate people with all sorts of requirements, so there's plenty of opportunity to select a time that's suitable for you, without having to go to mixed pools and saunas."

She added: "It must have looked extremely bizarre to be wearing a full robe in the water and it does draw attention to you, which is not what you are supposed to do."

Mrs Ramzy hopes that once qualified she and other women training will be able to extend the number of special 'halal' sessions.

Other requirements for public swimming to fit in with Islam include having windows covered in such a way that people cannot see in, and individual changing cubicles, as Muslim women do not expose any part of their body from the chest to the knee even to people of the same sex.

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David, says...
10:18am Sat 17 Mar 07

Why should they be treated any special than anyone else. I don't see any 'white women only' swimming lessons. If they want to swim then the rules should be the same for all.

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Nic, Oxfordshire says...
11:24am Sat 17 Mar 07

I can't believe what I am reading - swimming pools have rules for a reason and should not be asked to change them for any reason. They are there to protect us and allowing someone to swim in a full robe is dangerous and unhygenic. This is totally ridiculous and I hope we do not back down.

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gina, dublin says...
12:14pm Sat 17 Mar 07

Britian are the ones who colonioalised these peoples countries so ha ha when they decide to take over your country! I hope your country continues to be controlled by imigrants, ha ha!

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Gina, Dublin says...
12:59pm Sat 17 Mar 07

Keith, is that the best response you could think of? hmmm, how exactly how would I get blown up? Not much chance of that!Happy Paddy's day!!!!!

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kieth, says...
1:40pm Sat 17 Mar 07

You blew enough innocent enlish up, I for one will not be supporting paddys day, why should we celebrate bombers. Maybe you should convert to Islam.

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gd, oxon says...
2:02pm Sat 17 Mar 07

the rules are in place for a reason. why do we keep giving in to these people. no other minority group is treated the same way. i hope these muslim only swim sessions are financed privately and out of normal hours, the council should not be subsidising these events. so much for intergration,they dont want to be part of community but have their own instead.

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M, Oxford says...
2:34pm Sat 17 Mar 07

Keith, you are nothing more than an ignorant cretin and before you start spouting tripe about who has blown up who maybe you ought to extend your reading beyond that of The Sun!! Maybe you could start with Bloody Sunday in 1920 when the British rolled into Croagh Park and opened fire on the assembled crowd and shot 14 innocent people.... I should add that I also find the tactics of paramilitarys barbaric but dont see why you can differentiate one from the other

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Gazzer, Hong Kong ex BB Leys says...
11:07pm Sat 17 Mar 07

Does the Koran actually state these specific clothing requirements, or are they like the notion of Catholic priests being celibate, man made interpretations?

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gina, dublin says...
11:56pm Sat 17 Mar 07

Hi, Gazzer, exact dress requirements are not in the Qur'an they are in the sunnah,(hadith), which is the ins and outs of how Muslims lived when prophet Muhammed was alive.Most Muslim women's groups pay to hire a pool and go as a women's group in leggins and t-shirts.In Ireland all women including non-Muslims are welcome too but they wear leggins and t-shirt too. It's not such a big deal and it makes swimming much more comfortable for elderly ladies or those with a fuller figure who may not be comfortable in a swimsuit.

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Oxford Crusader, Oxford says...
2:27pm Mon 19 Mar 07

What appears as nonsense--Muslimladies swimming rights and nights-- has got you Europeans at each others throats. Look at keith and M going it hammer and tongs.!

This is just what the Muslims want. It's part and parcel of the strategy known as al-Taqiya, which is used when Muslims are not strong enough to mount an all-out war.

The Muslim lady swimmers are just a tiny ongoing element of enchroachment and hoped for conquest of the infidel.

Europeans: don't fight each other, but fight back against the Islamic threat. Make a start by reading a short and to the point essay Al-Taqiya by Professor Whalid Phares,find him on www.freedom.org. And ther's a mass of info on Mulim methods to be found on www.gatesofvienna,blogspot.com.

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dennis, Kanab, Utah says...
3:33pm Mon 19 Mar 07

May I suggest that the muslim women please read "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
thank you,

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Catsabin, Cincinnati, Ohio, USA says...
9:42pm Thu 22 Mar 07

Gazzer, The only thing the Quran says is for both men and women to guard their modesty, to "lower their gaze" when looking at a memeber of the opposite sex, and specifically calls for women to "cover their bosom with their headcovering". Women are also specifically asked in the Quran to "pull their overgarments around them" when going out of their houses, to be "recognized and not annoyed". This has been interpreted by almost all of the muslims in the world to mean cover everything but the face and hands, although covering is definitely not something that will get you to heaven if you do it or **** you to **** if you don't do it.
I am muslim in the USA and cover... I am shocked these women would monopolize public swimming pools for an activity that clearly should be held in a privately owned club. They also should be wearing muslim versions of real swimming suits, which I have seen for sale on amazon.com via Australia...they definitely should NOT be wearing robes!

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truthspeaker, qatar says...
1:22pm Fri 23 Mar 07

Once again another opportunity to bash the Muslims.Everyone has missed the point, that the Muslims are also council and income tax payers and they, like other groups have needs. One minute everyone complains that the Muslim woman is suppressed, the next minute, we're all screaming when they try to learn a new skill. No matter what the Muslim woman does, she just can't win.There is just far too much hysteria going on in the Uk right now and only because news that belittles and degrades others sells newspapers!!!
The Muslim group is hiring the pool, its not given to them for free. Considering that the pool is available to other groups and individual for the majority of the opening times,to spare one or two hours a week for the Muslim ladies is hardly a sacrifice on the part of others. I'm sure if it was a big nuisance to the rest of the community, the club would not have allowed it to go ahead in the first place. I am an expat living in Qatar in the Middle East and l am amazed at how tolerant the Muslims here are towards other races and their life styles.Maybe we can learn from that. Please,forget all this nonsense that is stirred up by the media.Lets think for ourselves and stop trying to marginalise the Muslims. Hitler marginalised the jews and we all know the consequences of that.

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Nancy Bang, Denmark says...
11:29am Fri 20 Apr 07

Discrimination has reached new heights. I was brought up in England and can scarcely believe what I am reading.

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claire, says...
3:12pm Fri 20 Apr 07

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2061608,00.html

The reality of what occurred, rather than the lazy journalism shown here.

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Lizzy, London says...
4:08pm Fri 20 Apr 07

Erm... hello - why do people keep referring to robes? No said anything about wearing robes in the pool - this article taks about leggings and t-shirts, the other about full length swimming costumes... what is wrong with either? How does wearing either of them affect anyone else who is swimming?

And why shoudn't muslim women hire public pools to swim in? Anyone else can do it if they want to, and no-one would question it.

There are women only gyms, to make women feel more comfortable working out, so what is wrong with muslim women swimming together in an environment that they feel comfortable in? It seems like just a good excuse to show your predjudices.

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rosie, says...
4:30pm Fri 20 Apr 07

i just want to point out that the muslim womann who was supposedly wearing a "full length veil", was in fact wearing a full length swimming costume made for muslim women. it was made out of the material that swimming costumes are normally made of. i franky find it disgusting how judgemental so many people in england are.

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Rb, London says...
5:45pm Fri 20 Apr 07

This attack at Manal Omar is disgusting. Muslim women didnt ask to born muslim, and if they want to stay as active as anyone else they can do that. The costume was lycra and perfectly hygenic, just like the all basic swimsuits. frankly i think that the fact England is the only city she has been in so far that has openly critisized and humiliated her is something you should think about. I'm not muslim, and i do not really know any muslim people. but still i can see how unhumane this is. Good on you, Manal!

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Tim, Oxord says...
5:55pm Fri 20 Apr 07

congratulations, you have made this woman completely humiliated. i hope some of you racist right wing snobs stick your long noses into the guardian and read the article about the truth. if your mother or sister or daughter wanted to swim like that you wouldnt have completely run her down and spouted crap at her. MUSLIMS ARE HUMANS. get a grip and a slap round the face. nice one.

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*, Gloustershire says...
6:00pm Fri 20 Apr 07

you make me sick. i hope you experience the hatred and misery you have forced on this completely rule-abiding and genuine woman. this race-hating country doesnt deserve to have freedom of speech if this is the crap you're allowed to write.

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Commentator, USA says...
10:45pm Sun 22 Apr 07

To the expat living in Qatar who is amazed at how tolerant his Muslim hosts are: Are you by any chance trying to live an openly gay life with a same-sex partner? Or practice a religion other than Islam or Christianity? Surely not, as those "lifestyles" would land you in prison. In the west Muslims --like the now famously modest female swimmer -- may have to deal with discrimination by a few stupid individuals, but in Muslim countries the discrimination is not only societal but also enshrined in the law.

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