Tram possibility (From Oxford Mail)

Presumably about as likely (or feasible) as the guided bus scheme they floated about 10 years ago. Nice project to put on some engineer's CV.

Nimby's somewhere along the route will no doubt soon put a stop to this!

Too right Gunslinger. Everybody wants a high-frequency public transport link... one block away from their house.

Now to transport issues. Tram schemes are ferociously expensive, so the only way to make them pay is to run them along a route where there is a proven market to travel. In our city this means along the high-intensity bus corridors. So assuming we had the money to build tramlines, the first routes you'd build would be BBL-Oxford Station, City-Barton and City-Kidlington. These would be traditional street-running tramlines, not the kind of 'light rail' we see in much of the Manchester and Nottingham networks.

That is not to say there is not potential for Cowley-Hospitals and along the Cowley Branch Line. THe demand is not there now probably because it's suppressed. I'd prove a demand for Cowley-Hospitals first by investing in a properly prioritised bus route. If demand proved high enough to justify a tram line most of the bus priority measures could be used by the tram.

THe Cowley Branch Line you'd have to take a punt on, as you can't run buses along it to prove demand. I'd build this last, as the success of the initial tram lines would have to be used in the business case for the Cowley Branch Line.

This

Lots of cities have trams, more are installing them at the moment, Oxford should start thinking Yesterday, Today or Tomorrow, not maybe at some time in the future.
Everything seems to be a possibility for the future, but when that date arrives, it then becomes further into the future, if something isn't done now, all that will be here in the future is the Universities and very little else.

Worth remembering the reason why trolleybuses were removed from Oxford in the first place is because they require incredible subsidy compared to buses and cars, and the tram tracks are hazardous to cyclists. (The trams probably would be too, bearing in mind some of the cyclists in Oxford, and the inability of trams to stop quickly).

It will never happen but it won't stop the council wasting our money studing the lack of feasability.

iklhik wrote:
Worth remembering the reason why trolleybuses were removed from Oxford in the first place is because they require incredible subsidy compared to buses and cars, and the tram tracks are hazardous to cyclists. (The trams probably would be too, bearing in mind some of the cyclists in Oxford, and the inability of trams to stop quickly). It will never happen but it won't stop the council wasting our money studing the lack of feasability.

To use a technical term, you're talking out of the hole in your 4r5e.

Oxford never had trolleybuses, it had horse-drawn trams which were never electrified before being replaced by motor buses.

Trams can stop very quickly as all axles are braked and there are a lot of them. I've seen one pullin an emergency stop in Brussels and it was a quick as a bus.

It's a matter of opinion whether trams and bikes mix, but it does not appear to be a problem in cities like Amsterdam or Antwerp which have huge numbers of both.

Coming back to King Joke's points:

1. The demand for an orbital public transport route is unproven - if it were there, one might see buses taking such a route between Redbridge, Cowley and the JR using the ring road, rather than through the city centre.

2. Any route which doesn't actually go to the city centre is surely missing the point - as Edinburgh have found.

3. IF (big if) there is any case for using the Cowley freight line as a passenger route, then it would make more sense to continue from Redbridge into the city centre alongside the existing rail track (as the aborted bus scheme would have done).

This is all pie in the sky, window dressing, a nice bit of publicity for engineers in trade journals....

Re Point 2 Gunslinger, there /may/ be a case for an orbital PT service; the current bus services are hamstrung by traffic congestion and diversions through housing estates, and demand is probably suppressed. Plenty of cars use the orbital route so there is demand to travel on it.

I think what we do agree on is that the demand for radial routes is greater and would be the priority for starting a tram network.

Edinburgh is a good analogy. Many Lothian routes actually run orbitally rather than into the city centre. The busiest axis however is east-west via the city centre, which is why the first tram line is going that way.

Trams will never be built in Oxford. The roads are to narrow and it will cost millions. Just look at what is happening in Edinburgh, they are millions over budget, years behind the finishing date. With Oxfords record of getting things done, it won't be in our lifetime!

Bart_Simpson1 wrote:
Trams will never be built in Oxford. The roads are to narrow and it will cost millions. Just look at what is happening in Edinburgh, they are millions over budget, years behind the finishing date. With Oxfords record of getting things done, it won't be in our lifetime!

Now that I can't disagree with! Trams are pie-in-the-sky. The roads aren't too narrow though, trams need less room than buses as the rails keep them in a fixed envelope.

All you tram naysayers:

I lived in Nottingham from 1998-2004, before and after the trams were installed. The difference is amazing - very few buses and it just *works*.

Notts is a studenty city with 2 universities and numerous colleges, so lots of students but yes not as many bikes as here.

They're not cheap but it would make the city a much tidier place, and the good news is that the crazy cyclists won't argue with a tram!

We're not naysayers, NOttingham is twice the size of Oxford and 2004 was in the middle of the boom years. Trams could work in Oxford but there is no money to pay for them so all the above is hypothetical.

It would be very messy to try and put trams in Oxford's streets. They had the same problem in Brescia, Italy (similar to Oxford in size and historic centre) where they have built an automated light metro part in tunnels and part on dedicated track.

Tunneling causes no disruption and works out cheaper as the lines can be straighter and shorter.

Who would pay? Today the Government threw another £50bn at the banks. Better if this money were spent directly on creating jobs and infrastructure.

To be even vaguely economically viable, such a scheme would need to minimize land and demolition costs, avoid major civil engineering works, and be capable of transporting large numbers of passengers from day one.

I suppose one could envisage a route from Barton west and/or the JR using land alongside the ring road (or converting part of the existing carriageway?) linking up to the Cowley freight line to Redbridge, then in to the city centre alongside the rail line. There would be some street running in the city in the Oxpens / Westgate area, and possibly in a loop around Barton and the JR.

The critical point would be whether or not end to end journey times from Barton and Cowley in to the city by such a circuitous route were significantly better than the present alternatives.

You would need mass passenger flows to justify the investment, a short route in the suburbs and/or with unproven traffic potential will not do it.

Anyone remember GTE2000?

Trolleybuses are electric buses with road tyres, which get power from overhead wires - a bit like electric trains. What seems to be proposed for Oxford is the modern tram or rapid transport system (posh name for tram?) now found in several places around the UK and not that different to those in Blackpool. But they much less flexible to use than buses. As for the benefits of electric trams over diesel? Like electric trains, cars and good old milk floats (are they still used in Oxford?) they will all need something called electricity - which in turn will mean more pollution from power stations, to generate all the extra electricity needed to power 'cleaner greener' public transport. Or they could always connect Full Council meetings at County Hall and the Town Hall to the nearest wind-farm.

Electric traction is far more energy efficient than the internal combustion engine. The waste energy from braking can be recycled too. Anyone who has ridden in a modern electric tram will have experienced the smooth acceleration and braking as well as the smooth ride on the rails. Its far superior all round and cheaper to run.

Electricity can be generated from whatever - nuclear, gas, coal, wind, sun or hydro. No oil gets burnt.